Dealt with a guy serving me in a shop who made me feel like shit, and later realised he was a wannabe PUA

[parchedjanuary]

I'm actually so angry about what happened in the shop that I currently am incapable of explaining it here!!!

Arghhhh!!!

I will try and write a more coherent post tomorrow.

Basically, a local shop that sells very specific items. I went in last week. The guy that owns the shop served me. He was very helpful.

I went in again a few days ago. A new employee was working and the owner wasn't there. The new guy was incredibly rude, didn't help me at all, but equally told me how pretty he thought I was, asked me way to many personal questions, which I was so shocked about I stupidly answered. Did constant negging followed by weirdo complements. Then being really nice and friendly. But equally unhelpful. I felt terrible, couldn't wait to get out, kept thinking wtf???

I got home and remembered the thread on MN about women being approached by men/boys practicing their PUA (pick up artist) game.... and looking into it a bit more, I think this might have been what he was practicing.

I'm still so angry I can't even express what happened!!!

I do intend to go back in to the shop and hopefully see the owner and tell him what his employee is up to when left alone.

Sorry this post makes no sense at all. I'm just so sad and angry about it!!!

I will attempt another post with a better explanation when I'm a bit more calm

Ultimately its not just about trying to engineer a sexual relationship though is it… just yesterday my teen DD was approached by an older guy who complimented her hair, then asked why she wore makeup. It’s about power, control. Insulting or throwing a girl/woman off to feel they’ve got the upper hand any/ever social exchange. It’s tiring.

I haven’t lived in the U.K. for 15 years but I guess things have changed a lot in that time. I’m also from the south of England originally and there weren’t any areas of any cities or towns that i wouldn’t have gone to back then (apart from maybe bits of Portsmouth or Hastings but they’re not affluent so that can’t be where you mean!). That’s really sad that things have changed so much over that time.

Is this kind of behaviour a progression from the kind of men who used to yell “TITS” at women from their car? Now they’re out and roaming the streets. It isn’t a sexual thing, definitely power, a desire to make women feel small.
I used to think “do they think that at their 40th wedding anniversary they’ll make a speech saying “I yelled tits at a fit woman and now look at us””

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark I am exactly the kind of person that you are describing to OzGirl. I'm a lot older than I come across in this thread. I've experienced exactly the type of things you describe which means I have really crappie boundaries. And it's a bit of a never ending cycle. You start from young with terrible boundaries because of your childhood, then you get abused as an adult, boundaries get worse, more abuse, boundaries get worse, and on it goes!!

I've literally had to do so much work , to even gain a tiny bit of boundaries! I'm actually so pleased with myself for noticing that something was up with creepy shop guy! Also predatory type guys can see a mile of (I don't know how), if you have a history of abuse/boundary issues.

Even though the shop experience made me feel utterly terrible. And I felt terrible when he was talking to me. I did think after, well done you! Your instincts kicked in and you listened to them! You were sweating and trembling and thinking get me out of here! Honestly a few years ago I would have just thought, what a lovely man and 100% believed the insults he gave me 😊

I'm quite sure it does work - I was raised a people pleaser and had lowish self esteem (when I was young) I can see it working on me. And just look at some of the women who come onto Mumsnet living with coercion, abuse and sometimes violence and who still say "I love him, but...."

Horrible.

Does anyone have any useful reposts up their sleeve? Obviously "Fuck Off", or a hard stare and "do you really thing that crap is going to get you a shag?" are useful starters.

PUAs and negging etc was on my radar in the early 00s. It's not some recent fad - unfortunately - it seems to have stuck and as op says, snowballed into the incel movement.
The more women that can recognise the pathetic attempts, the better!

It actually says "Pick up Artist" in the OP 🤔

I've never heard of this before (or negging), sounds totally and utterly bizarre.

Why use the shop in the first place?

If you live in an affluent city in the SE of the UK, can't you use other shops? If it's so unsafe you need to wear an alarm, can't you change your shopping habits, shop online, get food delivered, whatever it takes to make you feel safer?

It's a bit of a no go area...especially for women. There are many people (men) on drugs, drinking, begging etc.

This doesn't sound like an affluent area unless you mean somewhere like Brighton perhaps.

I'm not excusing this guy's behaviour, but if the area is as bad as you say, what are you doing living there?

What kind of a shop is it where the asst needs to talk to customers anyway? Most shops are self-service, pay at the till, etc.

Sorry that happened OP. He sounds vile.
Definitely send the business an email. They need to know as he'll be damaging their business if he does this to customers.
Just wondering, have you read The Gift of Fear?
It's very interesting about trusting our instincts which you already know about but I also found it made it easier/gave me permission for me to be rude to people (mostly men) who were pushing my boundaries. I see it mentioned on MN a lot, which is why I read it, and it's good.

Jinglinghellsbells hmmm yes maybe she should move, not go out, find different shops...
or maybe she should let the business owner know so the business doesn't get affected by a creep who is putting off customers?
Maybe she doesn't need to do anything to change her behaviour.
I suspect you're just baiting for attention, but what a stupid post.

I'd wait til the owner is back in the shop and then go and tell him how uncomfortable his new employee made you feel.

I usen't to be great at dealing with creeps. I'm 51 and I agree that even before there were labels for this stuff, there were creeps who tried to get you in to bed by grinding you down and eroding your boundaries. One creep once asked me ''do you think you're too good for me?'' and I was still trying to be POLITE!!!! argh.
In the end luckily I think I did explode at him that I was not enjoying having this conversation so what I wanted was to get away from him.
He was shocked his ''grind them down/erode their boundaries'' technique backfired on this occasion. I'm sure he just tweaked it slightly for the next woman with poor boundaries.

One good come back is I must have misheard and repeat that a couple of times. It lets them know that you think that they're acting inappropriately, that they are the ones out of order, that you're not offering up your life for their scrutiny.

If they persist then be more direct and say that's a weirdly intrusive question.

How awful and creepy.

I would speak to the owner. His employee should not be doing this in the workplace and it will also affect the business as he is likely to be doing the same with other women.

If the entire street is full of dodgy people, I would avoid using it in general. Sad that you have to stay away from a part of your neighbourhood but your safety comes first.

I remember hearing about the PUA stuff maybe fifteen/twenty years ago when The Game came out (a kind of guidebook about it — which I didn’t read, but it got a lot of fascinated/horrified media coverage).

So it’s not new, and not going away anytime soon.

Makes me sad and and angry to think of my DD and her friends, now 11/12, facing the same bullshit in years to come.

Does anyone have any useful reposts up their sleeve?

I think one of the best responses is simply to ignore them. They're looking to get a reaction out of you so just looking bored or like you're not listening will annoy the hell out of them. Whenever men try to pester me I just say "I'm actually in a bit of a rush" and then walk away.

@Ozgirl75

Good lord, that’s not a compliment. Does that actually work? I can’t imagine any of the feisty young women I know doing anything other than saying fuck off to someone saying that.

By feisty I assume you mean good boundaries/assertive, and no, they don't want women who are comfortable saying fuck off. They will get nowhere there. Their negging only works with women who aren't comfortable saying fuck off. They know that. They have no looks, no charm, no heart .......... what they have is the ability to make a vulnerable woman more vulnerable. But they GET SEX so to them it's a win. They wouldn't be self-reflecting afterwards.

@sheroku

Does anyone have any useful reposts up their sleeve?

I think one of the best responses is simply to ignore them. They're looking to get a reaction out of you so just looking bored or like you're not listening will annoy the hell out of them. Whenever men try to pester me I just say "I'm actually in a bit of a rush" and then walk away.

You're right. Even my go to ''I must have misheard'' in a bored voice, that could be seen as an invitation to re-phrase their question.

You have a personal alarm on a lanyard?
Where on earth are you living?

Jingling "I'm not excusing this guy's behaviour, but if the area is as bad as you say, what are you doing living there?"

🤷🏻‍♀️🤦🏽‍♀️

@patkinney

Can I just say something on this, as a man..... what the heck is the world coming to?

I live in fear these days of saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing, looking at a women slightly the wrong way and this thread really resonated with me, as to why.

So a guy in a shop complemented you on your attractiveness, be flattered. If offended - say you are attached or married, or tell him to f-off. But there is really no need to come on here and moan about being 'angry', nor should you try to get the guy sacked for being a bit forward. At the very least have a quiet word with his boss about how he deals with customers, but don't get him sacked - he might really need the job, he might even have SEN things going on to do with knowing where boundaries are or maturity issues, that you were unaware of.

I'm sorry but I class this as wokeness and really it is getting a bit crazy. Soon the only way people are going to get together are via arranged marriages and internet dating, is that really the way to go?

You only have to look at the recent James Bond films to see I'm onto something here (sorry I know this has been discussed elsewhere on mn). In Skyfall (2012) Bond sneaks into a woman's shower and well, she seems quite happy about it. But in the recent one just a decade later (I saw it at the weekend) he is practically sexless - he dare not even try to flirt with the Bond women, for fear of causing offence or being politically incorrect. Now I'm not saying we should go back to the 1960s/1970s; Benny Hill and all of that, but there has to be some middle ground and I fear we have gone too far the other way..... or am I just out of touch because I'm middle-aged?

You could try reading the actual thread before saying it's about men giving compliments.

You are rudely ignoring what women are saying in here so you can crowbar in your pre-prepared whinging.

@fluffiphlox

I was struck by your comment that you wear a personal alarm on a lanyard. How common is this?

I have one since being attacked a few months ago.

The bloke was caught, but said he didn't remember hitting me, so they let him go.

Saw an article in the local paper recently about how VAW is being taken seriously. I laughed.

Seriously, pat, you think it's "woke" to complain about a man insulting you - calling you fat is one of the specific examples given? Are you quite stupid? Do you understand the words you use?

@Jaguar77

You have a personal alarm on a lanyard? Where on earth are you living?

Oh god, another one!

I live in a rough area of london. It wasn't rough when I moved here.

It borders a nice area of London. A neighbour was recently wheeling her baby along in the nice area to collect older DC from nursery. She was knocked to the ground and her handbag taken. I think this was about 2pm.

I often wonder what magic places MNers live in.

Sorry, as you were...!

And i think, pat, you are out and out lying about "living in fear" of saying the wrong thing.
Maybe try living in fear of being attacked because of your sex for a few decades before you go tossing around phrases like that.
Do you think you might get raped if you say the wrong thing? Look at someone the wrong way? Aren't polite enough in your refusal of their advances?
Be off with you.

I do not understand why people are questioning the OP about wearing an alarm, that really is non of their beeswax and OP does not have to justify it whatsoever!!