DS resents us for not sending him to private school

[sejanus]

Let me just give a bit of back story...
Both DH and I went to private schools. DH went to a big name boarding school and hated it, left without any real good qualifications as he mucked about. I went to a small day school and was happy and left with good enough grades to get me into the local university. I am an only child. DH has a brother and a sister who have both done very well for themselves and so now send their children to private schools too. DS is therefore the only one of his generation in the family not to go to a private school.

We sent him to the local comprehensive school that looked like a very good option when he was in primary, but over the years has slid. It's now having extra support due to failures in certain fields.

DS worked very hard throughout school and ended up with good a levels that got him into the university he wanted to go too. He was never particularly happy and often was ribbed for being geeky and a bit posh.

Could we have afforded private school? Probably, at a big push without any holidays that he's enjoyed but we both have pretty average incomes. (Less than 100k together)

DS has admitted he feels like he massively missed out on not being sent to a private school. About 50% of his university went to private schools and he feels they are cliquey against people who went to state schools. He said well if his grandparents afforded for his parents to go to private school, why could his parents not do the same?

I have no interest in what you object to. I’m appalled by your pompous obliviousness of the extent to which people will go to raise their family out of poverty.

The telescopic philanthropy, from a position of middle class privilege, of pseudo-concern for some while dismissing the genuine struggle of others, is distasteful.

Wombat has a really good point- incomes are always discussed in gross terms whilst the fees are paid from after tax income. If you’ve got two children at 20-25k a year then you need to earn a lot more than that gross in order to have that as disposable income. The upper end of that is 2k per child per month to be paid from your after tax salary- say what you like about middle class couples wanting to maintain their lifestyles but most of them aren’t spending that on meals out and holidays per month.

I’m struck that a lot of this is about what we are actually trying to achieve with education. If he’s on a course where 50% of the students were privately educated then surely by his own measures then he is just as “good” as them and you have provided him with other experiences and a lifestyle that is generally considered to be privileged. My course had a lot of privately educated students and I went to a comp in a town which is renowned for being grotty and I honestly experienced very little of that negativity. There was the odd taking the piss out of my accent but I just did it back and it was good natured anyway. Would he be happier somewhere else do you think?

the extent to which people will go to raise their family out of poverty.

It's hardly raising themselves out of poverty given the OP's lad got to university from his no doubt bleak and benighted comp.

“while dismissing the genuine struggle of others, is distasteful.”

I refuse to accept that being able to raise the money to send your child to private school is a “genuine struggle”. It’s like me saying that I “struggle” to keep our pony because some months I have to “sacrifice” a few meals out to pay her livery fees.

And yes I am aware that some people put all their spare money into school fees. But that is their choice. It’s not like deciding who in the family to feed.

BertrandRussell, I get where you are coming from!

I live in an area where comps are good (great even) but lots of people still send their kids private. Obviously that is not my business and I have no problem with that. It is a valid choice.

I have a few friends/acquaintances who think it takes huuuuge sacrifices to send their kids private, but frankly they seem.out of touch.

Sacrifices such as "only going skiing once this year"

"Only doing a short one week trip to Tobago this winter"

"Buying a 2yr old car, instead of brand new"

Etc etc

It can be a bit of an irritant, to see how out of touch people are!

It makes me but that's life where I live. A middle class bubble in Hants (think you live in similar area Bertrandrussel? )

Which well-known private day school is only £13k per annum? That's very cheap! Most people fork out at least that much for a full-time nursery place these days.

George Watsons in Edinburgh, aparently it has won an award for being 'good value'. Very well known in Scotland (lots of famous Scottish sports people went there) but since it offers Highers rather than A levels maybe not so well known south of the border. My point was though that my PILs could afford to send 3DC there on a single lecturer's salary (payscale) something that would be impossible now. We looked at our local private school, they offered scholarships to families on incomes below £50kpa but that means a lot of families on good salaries wouldn't get scholarships but couldn't afford private education unless they either chose to have a single child and/or endangered their own financial stability (see renting rather than having a mortgage example above). I think unless you are very rich the benefits are not worth the costs.

Solitude- I live half in and half out of such a bubble! Lots of people for whom private school fees are small change, lots of the “beat up old Volvo” tendency, some who choose to live very restricted lives indeed in order to afford fees, and very many for whom finding £3 on a Thursday for swimming can be a struggle, and who make very real sacrifices so their children can have what most people on here would regard as the very basics.

Which is why the use of the word “sacrifice” is a red rag to a bull in this context!

I refuse to accept that being able to raise the money to send your child to private school is a “genuine struggle”

And that makes you appallinglh ignorant of people’s lives all over the world and all over this country. You’re looking from a shockingly myopic, complacent middle class bubble.

I have a few friends/acquaintances who think it takes huuuuge sacrifices to send their kids private, but frankly they seem.out of touch.

Which isn’t even remotely the context of the discussion I was having with Bertrand.

And yes I am aware that some people put all their spare money into school fees. But that is their choice. It’s not like deciding who in the family to feed.

My point was, and you should be aware enough of the world to know this, that some people do both.

And the reason that people in poverty decide to educate one or more members of the family is precisely to secure a future where they don’t have to worry about mouths to feed.

He sounds fairly entitled tbh.

My DP went to private school and did no better than I did at the local comp. Your DS did well in the local comp, I’m not really sure why he’s complaining.

“And the reason that people in poverty decide to educate one or more members of the family is precisely to secure a future where they don’t have to worry about mouths to feed.”

Hang on- are we talking about this country? Or some other country where education is only available to those who can pay?

The thing about ds' experience of his university is interesting - yes there are lots of other students who ds could meet up with, but tbh I have read on mn about the trend at some univs of a whole group coming from one school (or several schools where students know each other already), somehow ending up in the same hall/floor, and other students living there do feel excluded. (I think Durham's college allocation system may be intended to avoid conglomerations like this? Others may know more!) So maybe this ds has been a bit unlucky with his accommodation.

It sounds as though ds may be having a hard time settling in (not sure which year he's in) - not at all uncommon. Can he branch out to some other societies/clubs/start a new sport, to meet new people?

Being miserable at school is awful - that can happen in any school, in either sector, of course, but is always deserving of some sympathy! I love another pp's phrase "don't look backwards, you're not going there" - that is a very good motto. Though I think you have to combine it with listening understandingly when people talk about their past experiences - in rl life bad experiences at school can stay with you for some time.

I went to the university of York, plenty of friends who came from mixed backgrounds, some boarding school, some private schools and some state schools, however none of that mattered we all got in to the same university and we were all friends. My housemate in my second year’s dad was a famous football scout, you wouldn’t even think he was mega wealthy, he was just like everyone else totally down to earth . Tell him to give his head a wobble.

My DS went to a very average, ex failing Comprehensive, onto sixth form and did exceptionally well from them- he was very focused and capable, which I guess is to his credit as well as the schools though. He is now at what is apparently though of as one of the 'poshest' universities and all his new friends think he is 'posh'. There is no way we could have sent him to a private school, nor would he have wanted to go to one, and it really is down to him to be honest that he has done so well in a subject I don't even understand! What I suppose I am trying to say is that if they are going to do well, they will do well.

Yes, if paying £20k for each of 2 kids, that is £40k or well over £3k per month of post tax income. Bearing in mind that higher earners pay 40% tax (or more) on the excess over about £42k, all of that £3k will have had 40% tax paid on it, so to have £3k per month post tax, requires earning about £5k per month pre-tax and that is even before national insurance, pensions etc have come off. That £5k is over £60k per year of gross earnings.......probably closer to £70k.

So, to fund 2 kids at £20k each, requires a family to have a 'spare' £70k in gross earnings, after they have paid for their housing and other living costs. I know what Bertrand means when she says it's hard to consider £70k a 'sacrifice'. Personally I'd call it 'a lifestyle choice only available to the rich'.

How much is required as a gross income to have the £70k gross to be able to cover the £40k of fees coming out of net income? Impossible to say. The odd person might have zero mortgage and be living in a shoestring with little optional expenditure and be scraping by on a couple of grand a month, meaning their overall total income is just shy of £100k. However that's very unusual. Most people earning £100k don't spend 70% on school fees and live a meagre eked out existence in all other areas of their life. Most people see school fees as a luxury product and only consider them when other so-called essentials or necessary luxuries have been covered....so most would want some kind of holiday, some size of accommodation and security net of savings and some payment into pensions. Of course most with children in Independnet schools expect a lot of each of these things, which is why it's very easy to reach the £150k mark for income before people seriously consider fees, if they live in the south east and are looking at the standard price for that area, rather than a school which is substantially cheaper than average.

£150k is a huge amount to most people. But within these schools there are lots of families who have 4 kids in the school and who have multiple holidays, holiday homes and who have incomes far far in excess of £150k and for whom the fees are a drop in the ocean.

We clearly live in a society of huge inequality of income and wealth, when people can struggle to find £3 for swimming or £3 for the evening meal, whilst others can sign another child up to a school costing £40k without much thought. And it's easy to lose sight of how others live. If you have very little, the idea of £30k can seem like untold riches and as if it would allow things you could never imagine, whilst for others the idea of £100k seems to be unimaginable in terms of its lifestyle implications. Whoever we speak to, we do well to remember that not everyone is the same, and especially on an Internet forum like this, we do well to remember that people across the full range of income and wealth are reading and our own experience of income and wealth is certainly not everyone's.

And for OP's son, well I'd suggest he is just adjusting to the real world. Often when kids go off to uni and are in the world by themselves for the first time, insecurities can come out. They can be about all kinds of things and money or education is just one of them. Most of these worries are passing phases and just a brief issue which is part of growing up. Kids learn that in the end they have a large amount of control over their own lives, everyone has had different backgrounds and what they do next matters. I'd suggest Op listens to DS, points out all the positives he's had and the strong place he is in now and the bright future ahead of him......and swiftly moves on. It sounds like both Op and DS could get caught up in this nonsense, but really it's only if they let themselves. Count your blessings......

Well maybe he has a point if you kept him in a school you knew was sliding. I left private at 16 and regret not staying, went to average uni but not the one I should. It is how he feels and you cant change it but your view of your childhood changes as you get older. He should be proud that he did well despite those challenges - perhaps he will one day.

What does he feel he missed out on? Not holidays. Not good results. He is at a good uni. He speaks a bit posh (sorry but it is handy to be interchangeable!!). Nothing.

I think it may be confidence and self esteem. Also cliques at uni. There is an air of confidence with private school kids that comes from having high aspirations for you at school where uni is seen as the path you will take. Remember most of those people are faking confidence - as they say, fake it until you make it. He just needs to find nice people he likes and gets on with. Join clubs based on his own interests.

Yes, I think first year at university (is it ds' first year op?) can be great, or it can be very stressful (or both!) - meeting new people, adjusting to quite different work patterns, wondering if you're up to the work, then you have arranging next year's accommodation, maybe finding other people to 'group' with, which is another source of stress.

I think university is perhaps 'oversold' as inevitably being great fun - the rainbow at the end of A levels - when the reality is that for some it is, and for some it is not.

I would listen to him without being defensive and say 'I completely understand how you feel about this, it certainly seems unfair when I look at it from your point of view, but it is what it is, I love you very much, I'm really proud of you and now we need to move forward'.

And if you can afford it, tell him how you'll help him out financially with a car or deposit for first home he buys.

“There is an air of confidence with private school kids that comes from having high aspirations for you at school where uni is seen as the path you will take”

Sorry- going to challenge this too! There is an air of confidence to private school kids that comes from being born to privilege. The same applies to state school kids with similar backgrounds!

The assumption that a family funding 2 children at private school can only be higher earners on 40% tax is ludicrous.

Most people see school fees as a luxury product

If you had read my posts or travelled a bit, you would see that for many people in the world it’s seen as a way out of poverty.

And it's easy to lose sight of how others live.

Quite.