DS resents us for not sending him to private school

[sejanus]

Let me just give a bit of back story...
Both DH and I went to private schools. DH went to a big name boarding school and hated it, left without any real good qualifications as he mucked about. I went to a small day school and was happy and left with good enough grades to get me into the local university. I am an only child. DH has a brother and a sister who have both done very well for themselves and so now send their children to private schools too. DS is therefore the only one of his generation in the family not to go to a private school.

We sent him to the local comprehensive school that looked like a very good option when he was in primary, but over the years has slid. It's now having extra support due to failures in certain fields.

DS worked very hard throughout school and ended up with good a levels that got him into the university he wanted to go too. He was never particularly happy and often was ribbed for being geeky and a bit posh.

Could we have afforded private school? Probably, at a big push without any holidays that he's enjoyed but we both have pretty average incomes. (Less than 100k together)

DS has admitted he feels like he massively missed out on not being sent to a private school. About 50% of his university went to private schools and he feels they are cliquey against people who went to state schools. He said well if his grandparents afforded for his parents to go to private school, why could his parents not do the same?

*Of course a couple on nearly £100,000 pa could struggle to pay for private education for one child.

It depends on their other outgoings and the fees at the school*

It is possible to control your other outgoings. Its also possible to pick a private school within one's (considerable) budget.

I suspect OP is like many other couples I have met on similar incomes who talk about how they can 'only just' afford their mortgage but then eat out regularly, buy expensive foods at home, have multiple holidays and breaks every year and general have an expensive and quite luxurious lifestyle. That is not 'can only just about afford'. That is wanting to maintain an extremely comfortable lifestyle. I'm really tired of the top slice of most affluent people pretending they are struggling.

I don't like the suggestion made by some that if you could scrape together the money for fees, you are somehow duty bound to do so....that not doing so is letting your child down.

It often strikes me as being those furthest end removed from independent education who take the view that private is always better than state, in the same way they see that anything which costs more must be better than something which costs less. LOTS of things influence school choice. School fees is a key factor, but there is also the quality of education to be considered - in lots of areas there isn't an Independnet school which appears in the top 100 schools and there might well be some good state schools. There are lots of state schools which deliver better results than lots of private schools - people often forget that. Additionally, lots of families could scrape together fees but instead choose to live in a more expensive area and have a bigger mortgage or to spend their money on travelling and other enriching experiences. Others choose to put the money into an account for their child or to build up a house deposit or even buy a flat with the money for the child......who is really to say that any of these uses of money is any worse than spending it on fees, when a child can be educated for nothing and according to this Op, end up with their child in a top uni?

And the thing about £100k....of course it is miles more than the average. There are certainly people with kids in Independnet schools with household incomes of less than £100k. However, it is worth remembering too, that household incomes of privately educated children are growing all the time - the typical parent is no longer a GP or Solicitor but someone in the City. I saw a study recently which said that the %of families in independent education with a household income of below £100k had fallen 30% in 15 years but those with a family income of over £175k had risen by 40%. To most people these figures are staggering and this just emphasises the point that private education (certainly in the south) is affordable to a smaller fraction if society than in the past. Fees have risen so fast that a couple can both have decent professional jobs and not be able to afford fees, when a generation ago they could have stretched to it. The privately educated Op and her DH are not at all unusual in now sending their own children to state schools. Often those middle class parents manage to live in the affluent areas near to the great state schools and spend their money on mortgages not school fees, plus have enough left over for the travel and other hobbies they value. Many of these will be very happy with their choices and see their kids do well at school and beyond and decide that the £20k per head secondary fees are just not worth it, becaue the extra gained compared to the great state school isn't enough. And for most people, unless they are super-loaded that will be the case - paying fees and scrimping and saving and going without, for an education which might seem only marginally better (if at all compared to some state options) just doesn't seem worth it - the true cost in terms of where they can live and lifestyle is just too great, because the fees are so high. Most of the middle class who find themselves in this position are fine with it - they've weighted the costs against benefits and made their choices in a rational way.

Personally I believe that unless your child has some particular need or unless the state options are truly dire (and lots of people like to say they are dire when they aren't actually) you need to be extremely well-off these days to choose independent education - and I mean an income of £150k+ for 2 kids. Otherwise the costs in terms of other sacrifices are just too great, when it is possible to move and live near a really good free education.

Excellent post Wombat. Completely agree.

Where is the clever op?

You do not need a combined income of 150k to send 2 children privately.

There are excellent day schools for 25 grand pa.

I think people’s lifestyle expectations have risen. Back in the 70s, families had one car, if that, one holiday a year - somewhere in the U.K. or Europe, they didn’t have fancy technology or extensions with bifolding doors, they made food from scratch and often clothes too.

I think my parents’ generation were generally less materialistic and more inclined to make sacrifices. I think the world has got much more materialistic and consumer oriented since then.

Agree with earlier post.

We didn't send dd private when at a stretch we could have done. Local private school didn't have the curriculum choice which the local comp did. No graphic design, no photography. Same in the sixth form, she couldn't have done the A levels she wanted.

I think using the word “sacrifices” when talking about sending children to private school is offensive and tasteless in the extreme.

He doesn’t sound resentful. I think that’s an exaggeration. I’m guessing you’ve talked about it with him throughout childhood hence it coming up. So maybe you have projected a bit as well.

I thought the OP said it was LESS than 100K...

Op said less than 100k. DH and I earn 80k-ish between us and we don't feel that we could afford private school. Perhaps op is on around the same.

We have a reasonably big mortgage, we pay for our DC to do extra-curricular activities, we try to take one weeks holiday per year, we run one car between us with all the costs that entails, we save. This doesn't leave room for £1000 per month per child on a 'cheap' private school. And we are not living extravagantly either.

I was replying to Wombat

you need to be extremely well-off these days to choose independent education - and I mean an income of £150k+ for 2 kids

I think using the word “sacrifices” when talking about sending children to private school is offensive and tasteless in the extreme

Well I think your poorly considered comment is ‘offensive and tasteless in the extreme.’

I’ve known families from China, India, Russia, ME - living abstemiously in cramped conditions because all the spare money is going on education.

One of my best friends at school lived in a tiny one bed flat with her mum, who was a single parent. Her mother never went on holiday, to the cinema, never bought new clothes or dyed her hair. They lived on mince and lentils.

She got straight A’s and went on to Cambridge, now has an excellent job and is able to fund her mum’s retirement.

About 50% of his university went to private schools and he feels they are cliquey against people who went to state schools.

I probably wouldn't be unkind to him- because he is young and unhappy- but I would gently suggest to him that if he is unable to get on with the remaining 50%, then maybe his problems would be better solved by working on his social skills.

Either that, or he just has internalised a shitty attitude towards less privileged people.

Make it clear that for success in life (let alone happiness) you do need to be able to learn to work and get on with people who are not exactly like you. And that people who do well in life tend to be the ones who make strengths out of their experiences.

He needs a kick up the arse and to grow up. I can't believe a person of university age would be such a whiny little tosser!
Noone with an ounce of decency about them will care one way or the other.

the vast majority of privately educated kids will have been at a school that no one has heard of and are not part of some Old Boys Network. I don't think I met a single person at my Russell Group university who had been to one of the famous public schools. Lots of us had been at private day schools but we certainly didn't benefit from "connections" from them.

“I’ve known families from China, India, Russia, ME - living abstemiously in cramped conditions because all the spare money is going on education.

One of my best friends at school lived in a tiny one bed flat with her mum, who was a single parent. Her mother never went on holiday, to the cinema, never bought new clothes or dyed her hair. They lived on mince and lentils”
There are plenty of people living like that without the option of saving for private school- they live like that because that is the money they have.

If you HAD sent him to a private school he would be moaning that the private school you chose wasn't posh enough, or that he was bullied there for being the "poor" student, or that you now don't have enough money to help him get on the property ladder, or that he resented growing up without Disneyland and new family cars.

A parent's place is in the wrong. Hopefully he will grow out of this as he matures and gets a job and learns that in real life, hard financial decisions have to be made ;)

Pretty glad I didn’t live on mince and lentils to get my kids into uni. DD went to the local dodgy comp and has a few Elton boys on her course (and yes the posh kids are cliquey). I feel quite smug at all the money I’ve saved.

I agree that it might be possible to pay fees for 2 children at £20k each per year on less than £150k ......but it won't work for most people.

The reality is that most people have a mortgage and are likely to be higher rate tax payers. Even with the mortgage paid and all other life expenses, including a certain amount of leisure, £40k of post - tax income is needed to be free for fees. That is a lot of money, and someone earning £150k (increasingly fee paying family are one earner with a very high income) will pay a lot of tax, leaving less than people might imagine. Therefore, in a sense it it more expensive than people think. It's not just the fees either but other expenses that come with it such as trips and activities which all add up over the years.

There will be some people who really scrimp and save to pay fees. They will live in a tiny house or flat, drive a banger or not have a car, go without holidays for years and rarely go out. Some people are prepared to do this and if they will do this, then perhaps they can cover £40k of fees with an income of less than £100k, bearing in mind that a large percentage has already gone in tax.

But my question is, what is the real benefit of paying fees if you have to scrimp and save so much? Is a child better off going to a fee paying school if the fees mean they live in cramped conditions, cannot access the other stuff the kids at school are doing, never have a holiday and parents constantly worry that they aren't saving into a pension or won't be able to afford a new boiler when the current one breaks? Yes, those people might be able to scrape the fees together, but was it worth the sacrifice? I'd say not, if the lifestyle remaining is so limited.

That family with £100k without fees would be in a. Very well off position. They could live close to a good state school and they could pay for holidays and extra curricular activities and other enriching experiences for everyone in the family. A child's life isn't just made up of their schooling but their whole upbringing and if every penny goes on fees to the sacrifice of all else, I'd argue those children haven't had the 'rich' upbringing they might have had with a state education plus music lessons, holidays, hobbies and a sense of freedom from fears about money.

It is one thing to be able to afford school fees for 2 if you cut out every little pleasure from life, and quite another to afford them comfortably. With day school fees close to £20k per head for secondary in the south east and London, the gross income needed to pay £40k out of net salary is higher than lots of people imagine it is. It's for that reason that it really is becoming the uber rich who send multiple children to these schools, or those who get significant discounts through bursaries or staff discounts. Give it another 10 years and fewer parents will have bought houses when they were cheaper and still be saddled with big mortgages on not quite so large houses and it will be even more unaffordable and fewer and fewer school places will be taken by those in the solid professions and instead by those running their own successful businesses or working in the city or from abroad.

Maybe he should retrain as a cobbler? Seems his diamond shoes are too tight

There are plenty of people living like that without the option of saving for private school- they live like that because that is the money they have.

And? There are plenty of people living in worse conditions than those people.

I think maybe some parents see private schools as an investment in their child's peers and future contacts as much as education. Which given how much nepotism their is I can understand.

“And? There are plenty of people living in worse conditions than those people.”

Yes. They aren’t “making sacrifices” to send their child to private school either.

Yes. They aren’t “making sacrifices” to send their child to private school either

On the contrary, they may well be. In other countries - India, Africa, ME, Russia, E.Europe, S.America it’s widely known that education is the route out of poverty. Families will make huge sacrifices to educate and train their children, and that may involve coming to Britain and working long hours for a pittance to fund it.

Some privileged and rather philistine middle class British may look down their nose at these endeavours, but it’s not as if they’ve ever been in that position.

There are excellent day schools for 25 grand pa.

Oh well, what a bargain!

“Some privileged and rather philistine middle class British may look down their nose at these endeavours, but it’s not as if they’ve ever been in that position.”

I don’t look down on their endeavours. I object to people living in a way that means they can save significant amounts of money being described as “making sacrifices” when there are many families in this country where a parent will not eat so the children can. And not because they are saving money for private education- because that is all the money there is.