DS is constantly grabbing bottoms

[TheVeryHungryDieter]

Because bottoms are, obviously, hilarious. 

He keeps smacking, patting and grabbing bottoms, pulling pants down to see underwear, grabbing at willies, trying to take pictures of bottoms when he manages to get DH's phone.

He does it to DH, friends at school, his 3yo sister

You mentioned that your husband's style of giving him attention is more of a rough housing sort? Has that at any time involved grabbing/ drumming at his bottom while he's running away or pretending to pull his lower clothing down?

You do need to talk to your DH properly, and see how other people will view it. Good luck.

OP have you heard of Social Stories ? They are a tool used with Autistic children to prepare them for certain events or show that what the consequences of certain behaviours are.
I am NOT suggesting your DS is Autistic but I have used them with many children, including my own, when we have had a specific issue to deal with.
They are told as a story with the actions and consequences laid out. They explain what is happening, why this is not appropriate and how it makes other people feel, and what the consequences are. They take the emotion out of the situation and actually given a visual resource for you to pull out when you need it. You will probably need to create your own story and you will definitely need to establish with everyone involved what the sanctions in place will be and make sure everyone sticks to them.
Happy to help further .

Your post at 17.46 re bed and bath time made me think of a simple but powerful quote I read recently, which resonated with me wrt my defiant ds 'Spend time working on your connection with your child, or spend time working on their behaviour. Either way, spend time.' From what you've said it seems your ds is getting minimal connection and rapport and this has a massive knock on effect on his response to and cooperation with you. He's not playing ball because he's not feeling connected and a lot of the attention he's getting is negative, compounding things.

I think you need to go back to basics and make bedtime a cosy time together if you can, one you and he look forward to. Pick up a book in the library you know he'll enjoy, let him know you cant wait to read it at bedtime, put a note in his lunchbox to make him smile, play a board game or his game of choice even for 10mins before bed. Give him choices if you can re shower/bath etc. Don't get into too much negotiating or bargaining with him. Don't say 'Is that ok?' when you request him to do something, let him know it's happening with some concession to his preferences, story downstairs or upstairs, bath or shower etc.

Finally, try not to enter into his upset etc it sounds to me like a lot of learned behaviour and the result is you and dh exhausted and maybe even walking on eggshells around a 6yo..it happens and it's frightening for him too. Hope some of this is helpful OP.

You’re trying to teach a child to leave bums alone and you don’t have a lock on bathroom doors?

Do you and your husband have a relaxed attitude to nudity?

Listen to mikado1 she makes a lot of sence

Plus you need to lower the tension in your home

You say weekends are family time -
Why not divide and conquer and have mum and daughter afternoon and sad and son them swap aonthey both get a couple of hours one on one time

Short term you split the family but long term he would feel happier and more secure and you'd have better quality time all round

I would get a GO appointment ASAP, plus speak to the school. You can't manage this yourself, I can't imagine the pressure you are feeling right now.

It sounds like the only way your DH will take this seriously if for someone to complain about your DS, and you really don't want it to come to that.

Secret, no, DH does not play like that and doesn't like it. He tries to ignore DS doing it to him to not give him attention, but it makes him cross - and it's very rare to see him cross with the kids. DS has hit him hard in the willy a couple of times, which has really hurt him. It's more of a hold-them-upside-down and swing them around type of play.

Whoever asked if I stayed up all night to make sure DH wasn't getting out of bed - I'm not, but DH sleeps like the dead and I wake up when anyone in the house even rolls over. I'm usually getting up to the kids, he doesn't hear them unless he's awake already. We have wood floors in the landing and all the bedrooms and they creak like buggery - the cats will wake me. If DH is not in bed I will know within seconds.

@UseditUpandWoreitOut The report button is over there, you can use it if you like. Other people have made genuinely helpful posts, for which I'm very grateful.

Kurri - you're right, DS is in school 7:30-6pm because I have a longish commute into London. Those are my drop off times just to get to childminder, train station and be at my desk from 9-5. DH is gone from 6:45 to 6:30 most days - his commute is a bit shorter but he's at his desk by 7:30am.

Wow! Re your post starting "ah bath time" you have HUGE issues with this child isn't having their boundaries enforced, they're confused and scared and acting out as a result. I suspect this is due to you and dh having such different parenting views. And frankly I susoect dh being too lax is why you're having to be the bad guy. Actually I kinda HOPE that's the reason - because yet again these are red flags of a child that's been abused. I used to barricade my bedroom door!

No more pissing about! You need to contact GP/hv and ss ASAP and get proper professional support for your whole family.

This CANNOT continue like this!

"I rarely see him do it out of the house" because he DOES know it's unacceptable behaviour and CAN control himself when he WANTS to.

"Winding people up" - is not just attention seeking its aggressive and controlling at root. It's enjoying the ability to make another person feel bad. This is NOT something you can allow to go on being not corrected by your dh! It's also ANOTHER red flag re abuse.

"His friends and sister he seems to think of as "his" " so he's objectifying them and viewing them as his possessions. Fuck it gets worse!

You need to get this child seen by an expert. No I'm not biting my tongue any more its SCREAMING out of him! Something serious is going on here. You NEED To know what and get it dealt with.

I'm no expert but I believe If there was a pathology causing the lack of boundaries he wouldn't be able to control it ever, yet you say he can sometimes.

I too am beginning to wonder if this post is genuine. Assuming it is:

Red flags he's been abused:

1 Inappropriate sexualised behaviour which he can control and is able to limit.

2 Resisting bed time so strongly

3 Resisting bathing strongly - except when it can be used to delay bedtime

5 Objectifying others

6 Lacking empathy for others desire for bodily autonomy...

7 ...while fiercely protecting his own.

8 Getting pleasure from causing negative feelings in others.

If true this child needs a sw and a therapist imo.

I suspect I'll now get posters saying I'm overreacting, that any of the above don't necessarily mean there's a serious issue here. Well if there were 1 or 2 of those issues I'd probably agree but 8!!! The more op posts the more it looks increasingly likely that something very serious has either happened to, or is affecting this child.

To add to what @Graphista has said, surely, it's better to assume the worst and be proven wrong than the other way around? The alternative is a young child who is (and I hope to God he isn't) being abused, then subsequently being punished for his way of
trying to make it known/dealing with it.

There are just some kids who will not be told. If you tell them something is hot and not to touch it, they just have to touch it. If you tell them don't do X because Y, they will not listen and have to do X 'just to see what happens'. They need boundaries reinforced over and over again very firmly with direct and swift consequences - it's exhausting but it's the only thing that works!

I've seen this with my friend's son, as outlined upthread, and my own son can be incredibly stubborn too, although he has not shown any tendency towards inappropriate touching thankfully.

These kids just have to learn the hard way but if parents protect them from consequences they don't learn. Not saying you are doing this, OP, but I have seen it with other parents where they minimize hitting by saying 'oh well, boys will be boys, they all do it' and try to lay blame elsewhere. I knew a kid once who kept hitting my then 3-year old DS and the parents would either ignore it or would try to push responsibility onto my DS, saying to him 'did you use your words to tell him you don't like it?' Instead of, you know, actually parenting and telling their son his behaviour had consequences that were non-negotiable.

Too many parents want to make excuses, especially for boys. Maybe that's why I see this behavior mostly with boys, because they get away with it while girls are disciplined more harshly for inappropriate touching or hitting.

Don't be that parent, OP! Have a serious talk with your son and set up a system where he gets consequences for any inappropriate touching as soon as you see it and gets privileges removed e.g. no dessert, no screen time, double bath time time or whatever works for him.

So you spend 1 hour to 1.5 hours sitting on the landing each night to stop him coming out of his room?

IMHO and IME I would change the routine and your reaction

No screen time after school/after school club/home time

Agree with reading him stories each and every night for at least 30 mins just the 2 of you snuggled up on his bed with softish lighting

No tv or iPad in his bedroom and leave your phone downstairs in the kitchen

He will probably love getting positive relaxing time with you and he might fall asleep quicker

This child is acting out. Massively.

I’m the most relaxed parent. Ever. But I’d be worried about abuse if he was mine.

You said your son is never left alone with other adults then you say you are at the child minders at 7.30.

If that is correct you really have no idea who ds is exposed to before school starts.

Does childminder have older children either that are minded or childminder's own DC?

Breakfast club at 7:30 for DS, childminder at 7:40 for DD, park car at home, scurry to station, on train before 8am.

Breakfast and after school club are an all-female team, I'm one of but never the earliest and they are all very nice.

I'd make it that his screen time is a reward for good behaviour.
So if he wants it he can't have done this etc.
So your husband can't complain because it's a reward.

Breakfast and after school club are an all-female team

That doesn't 100% rule out abuse, it's rare but it happens.

He sounds like a really naughty child and you need to massively up your discipline. I don’t think I’ve ever heard such apathetic and silly replies. 2 hours a night for bath? Just put your fucking foot down.

Excellent point anotheroriginal.

Again op you need to stop assuming the many myths around abuse are correct.

Women abuse too - it's seemingly rare but then it's thought under-reported too. Surely you've heard of Vanessa George and Angela Alan? Rose west? Myra hindley? Yes those were extreme cases but they were women. There's a few mners who've been victims of abuse by women or their children targeted by women too.

Plus as pp asked - are their older children in these settings? How good is their security?

At the VERY LEAST please discuss this with nspcc. Although I'm relatively sure they will advise you involve GP & ss.

After reading the entire thread, I think it's down to not seeing either parent very much and not getting one on one time with either of them.

I think this because I am currently on maternity leave, and while dc1 was only in nursery for mornings he is now with me most of the time. He has behaved better and better the more time he spends with me, even though he adores nursery, and he was never a challenging child to begin with, just very strong willed.

Is there nothing either you or your DH could do to spend more time with the children? At least they need one on one time at the weekends. It sounds like you get them up and get them to bed during the week and rush around activities at the weekend. Even long term, can one of you not look out for closer jobs or cut down hours or work from home?

Please don't take it as a criticism, I know you have to work. Just consider if it's a possibility that the behaviour is partly due to spending too much time apart.

Abuse happens when supervising adults are present - it's part of the grooming process - 'see your mum/dad aren't telling me off for cuddling/stroking/"playfully" tapping your bum - therefore I have their permission to do so" it's how they get to breach boundaries

It's rare but women abuse too.

Again rare but children abuse too.

The safeguarding protocols in place at schools and childcare are pretty good - but not perfect. Eg just because someone passes a background check doesn't mean they're safe.

"If it were my spouse I'd know" - lots of parents very shocked to learn otherwise.

"Abuse is often sexually extreme/violent" - rarely actually. Not least because this leaves more evidence.

My DDs were attempted to be snatched by a woman and she was known for “inappropriate relationships”

It happens

OP...

I’ve worked with children from all sorts of backgrounds for 15 years. SEN children, those in foster care, children with paedophiles for parents.

What I’m reading on here is horrendous. I am seriously, seriously concerned, mainly for your daughter but also for the children and eventually adults that your son will come into contact with in future.

His behaviour is extremely disturbing. Your posts are sending shivers up my spine, mainly because I’m looking back at abusive men I’ve known and women who have been abused their entire lives, who don’t know they deserve any better and I’m thinking, “this is how it all starts”. You are allowing your son to abuse your daughter and other children and you aren’t even bothering to have a one to one conversation about it. Left alone and continuing to be allowed to behave like this, he will be extremely dangerous in future. He’s showing narcissistic traits beyond what is normal for a child. Your husband and you are indulging this behaviour. He is showing a disturbing lack of empathy for his sibling and peers. He is constantly pushing boundaries and showing no respect for others feelings or boundaries.

You can’t do this alone. You, as a family, need professional intervention. You should contact your SENCO and your GP ASAP. I think there is a good chance this warrants a referral to SS. I’m amazed a Child Concern or Safeguarding hasn’t been raised already.

Get help. Removing screen time isn’t going to cut it.