Hello, I'm a TRA - ask me anything

[AlphaTransWoman]

Good evening,

I'm a transgender rights advocate. I say "advocate" rather than "activist" because I believe in constructive debate and consensus building rather than the hostile, shouty kind of activism that gets us nowhere.

I am here because I am genuinely interested in seeing if there is some kind of compromise that can be reached between pro trans and gender critical views. Obviously this is difficult because we may disagree about something pretty fundamental. I feel passionately that trans women are women (at least in the psychological and social sense), so there's an obvious divide if you do not.

The question is, can we find ways to co-exist and find an acceptable way forward on some of the difficult issues that arise around trans acceptance? So I'm happy to have a go answering anything you care to ask in good faith. Who knows, we might even make some progress.

Let's break this down.

You want to feel safe so you choose to go into the female sex toilets.

Self ID / be kind means women feel they can't challenge any male bodied person in female sex spaces.

So that means you personally are opening the door of the female sex toilets to any male bodied person who wishes to go in.

Which means our female sex toilets are no longer anywhere near as safe as they used to be.
If a fox is bullied by other foxes, you don't put him into the chicken house to keep him safe.

You really aren't a woman. You are a man who doesn't meet male stereotypes - a gender non conforming man. Be you, embrace it, but don't call yourself a woman.

Probably a bit late for this, but I can’t let the ‘stereotypes’ thing pass.

OP, the characteristics associated with stereotypes are not inherently good or bad. Eg
kind - good when it means you consider other people, bad when it means you let them walk all over you
Physically strong - good when you need to lift something heavy, bad when it’s associated with violence
pride in your appearance - good when it makes you feel good about yourself, bad when it tips into vanity
….

The very real damage comes because of the stereotyping ie assuming that someone has these characteristics because of how they look; and worse, expectation or even enforcement. If you look honestly at yourself, you may be able to see how much damage someone/society has done to you by convincing you that because you are kind & caring etc you must be a woman. That is so unfair. I wish we had a society which fully accepts you, with all your characteristics, as the male you are.

Of course, your approach now is reinforcing these stereotypes, and trying to foist them on other people (whether you mean to or not, your are sending societal signals). I am logical, rational, good at maths, sadly, not as empathetic as I’d like to be. I will not accept you, or anyone else implying that this means I’m not a woman. That is why we are hostile (the implications for kids are pretty unpleasant too!)

This is from a few pages back (I’m just catching up) so apologies if someone else has already made the point I’m about to make.

You are talking about being forced to wear “masculine clothing” but the woman who suggested it was talking about the fact that many women choose to wear trousers because they know they are more at risk in skirts or dresses.

So those women who make that choice are not forced to do so. They are making a choice to preserve their safety over how they would perhaps prefer to dress.

They can, of course, choose to wear any clothes, including clothes they know are more likely to result in them being sexually assaulted.

So nobody is forcing you to do anything. Women are explaining to you what they have experienced and how it felt to grow up with that. You have no concept of what it feels like to be under that pressure from society or to have grown up with those risks and decisions. Your reaction, implying we might be “forcing” you into different clothes is an absolute demonstration of the entitlement borne of growing up male.

No, our safety trumps your feelings.
If other men are the reason why you won't use the same toilets as them then I suggest you approach your fellow males to sort it out. Leave women out of it.

For anyone reading this thread who is wondering whether OP’s claim to be unsafe in men’s toilets, Fionne Orlander uses men’s spaces, and has talked about doing so without problems. If you Google Fionne, you will see why many of us doubt that men in dresses are particularly at risk in male spaces.

Obviously there are places/times when it is less safe for men in dresses/transvestites to use the men’s facilities and going there is a choice for that man. If he chooses to go there, he should take the consequences, rather than selfishly forcing himself into a space where he makes the women who actually need that space for their safety unsafe.

Given the wide range of men who will protest against women only spaces, id have thought the safest space for any trans person would be a male only one.

Some of the things you have said on this thread are breathtakingly hypocritical. By your own logic, you shouldn't be using the disabled toilets, because you're not disabled! And you are biologically a man, you've referred to that fact numerous times on this very thread. We absolutely should be policing who is allowed to call themselves 'woman' - that word is for biological females to use. I've asked further up the thread, but you didn't respond - why do you need to be called a woman: can you not be proud of being a trans woman? It acknowledges biological reality, and it isn't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

Your statement: "But my safety trumps other peoples feelings" is deceptive nonsense - what you actually mean is "my feelings trump other people's feelings." You haven't once given us an example of men threatening violence against you for using the men's toilets, presumably because the second you decided to transition you haven't actually attempted to do so. Also, "If another person chooses to misgender me and decides not to use the ladies because I'm there, then that is her problem and not mine. End of." Women don't want biological men in their personal, private space. It's very much our problem if a biological man decides that their feelings/wants/needs trump biological women's feelings, wants and needs. The misgendering card gets played so much, and yet it's not as simple as that is it? It's nothing to do with your chosen gender, it's to do with your biological sex. Women don't just have to keep ourselves safe from male violence, we have to protect ourselves from their threats, their misogyny, their mansplaining, their repression of us, their discrimination against us and, of course, their invasion of our once safe spaces.

And we are getting tired of telling you to stay out of women's spaces.

However much you don't like it, as an adult human male, you are a man. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. And no amount of frilly blouse-wearing, faux-submissiveness or hormone-induced breast growth will change it.

I see you've chosen not to answer my previous question.

I'll risk another one.

@AlphaTransWoman Are there any human rights you feel you don't have?

While men are using the women’s toilets, women’s safety is compromised.

it’s not up to women to accept an increased risk so you feel better.

When you go into the bathroom, a biological man is on the bathroom. The risk to the women there has increased.

If you feel scared to use the appropriate bathroom, then you need to tackle that issues not ask women to accept an increased risk.

I overheard two of five little ones being constantly told to wait their turn and be kind today. Guess their sex?

Stereotypes aren't helpful to anyone.

There is a certain irony here in that the stereotypes you are showing here are a lack of listening, you may be tired of repeating yourself but making the sane point again and again even in the face of evidence is another stereotype and the male privilege just screams out of every post.

you can’t pick and choose what you like and don’t like. Being a woman isn’t being those things that you said it simply just is a matter of biology.

amd have you ever thought that rather than making women were masculine clothes (which again considering the fight to be able to wear more comfortable trousers and shoes rather than pencil skirts and high heels that women have had is ironic). There should be the ability for men to wear whatever they want. Yet you won’t challenge that

OP doesn’t want to feel safe, OP wants to validated. Wants us to agree they are a woman, feed the delusion.

OP I hope you find peace and happiness with your sexed body, because it’s always going to be male, regardless of how you act, what you wear or what toilet you want to go in.

You obviously have a fondness for the stereo type of women being warm, secure, mothering. It makes me wonder about the women in your life eg mother and what those relationships are like, were your emotional needs met as a child.

If you truly embraced the stereotype of women being caring and self sacrificing, @AlphaTransWoman, you would care about the safety of women that is being damaged by your ideology. But instead you demonstrate a very male sense of entitlement - it doesn’t matter if women are unsafe in their loos, changing rooms, hospital wards etc, as long as YOU feel safe.

You muddled that up. In your head your feelings trump other peoples safety.

my safety trumps other peoples feelings

Is this the new Spartacus?

No, MY safety trumps other peoples feelings!

But my safety trumps other peoples feelings.

Your feeling that you're a woman does not trump women's safety.

The thing is, @AlphaTransWoman thinks his safety trumps other women's feelings. And we, actual women, think our safety trumps his feelings. Why are we wrong and he is right, I wonder?

sticks hand up

Please miss, please miss..

Is it because he's a man and we're just a bundle of personality traits, miss?

Gold star!

It's a shame this thread is getting stuck on the issue of toilets.

What I'll do in future is plan my activities better to make sure there's a gender neutral option available if I might need to use public toilets. I really do not want to cause other women distress. I already accept that I can't use changing rooms unless there's some sort of separate facility available.

I can't guarantee I'll never set foot in the ladies' toilet again, but if I do it will be only in an emergency situation. I'm frankly terrified of using the gents, and I'm sure you don't literally expect me to wet myself.

I'll also encourage other TRAs to do likewise, but I can't guarantee they will agree with my position. That's really all I can say on this subject.

For as long as you believe that you have more right to use the ladies loos than we have the right to single sex facilities, you're no ally of ours. That really is what it boils down to.

Perhaps when an obviously male enough man follows you into the loos and acts like a creep, and when you try to object claims he identifies as a woman and has you arrested for a hate crime, you may understand.

Trans women commit violent and sexual crimes against women. Men identify as trans women to commit violent and sexual crimes against women. You identifying as female-brained doesn't reduce the risk to us that comes from trans women using women's spaces.

Campaign for third spaces, campaign for acceptance of TW from men, and campaign against male pattern violence, but if you wish to be an ally of ours, please Stay. Out. Of. Our. Spaces.

Then, and only then will we consider teaming up with you.

Why are you terrified of using the gents? Are you having therapy for this anxiety around being in a men's toilet?

There is little to no danger for you in a men's toilet.

@AlphaTransWoman I can't guarantee I'll never set foot in the ladies' toilet again
Why ever not? Don’t be so wet. Of course you can commit to not invading women’s toilets.

I'm sure you don't literally expect me to wet myself.

You could always take a she-wee about with you.

Oh wait, you don’t need to. You’ve already got built-in kit for just that purpose, what with you being a male, and all.

Stay out of our single-sex spaces. You’re not welcome there. You’re not wanted there. You don’t belong there.