Hello, I'm a TRA - ask me anything

[AlphaTransWoman]

Good evening,

I'm a transgender rights advocate. I say "advocate" rather than "activist" because I believe in constructive debate and consensus building rather than the hostile, shouty kind of activism that gets us nowhere.

I am here because I am genuinely interested in seeing if there is some kind of compromise that can be reached between pro trans and gender critical views. Obviously this is difficult because we may disagree about something pretty fundamental. I feel passionately that trans women are women (at least in the psychological and social sense), so there's an obvious divide if you do not.

The question is, can we find ways to co-exist and find an acceptable way forward on some of the difficult issues that arise around trans acceptance? So I'm happy to have a go answering anything you care to ask in good faith. Who knows, we might even make some progress.

Hmm - now how about addressing the topic of the damaging, regressive and old fashioned stereotypes that you cling to so fondly, @AlphaTransWoman?

Have you read our posts and understood why we find these stereotypes so toxic, because of the way they have been, and still are used to oppress women and to limit their choices and opportunities? And why we therefore find the TRA ideology, which is based so firmly and completely in those stereotypes, to be so offensive to us as women, when it is used to define us?

Do you understand why we are enraged that a tiny percentage of the population is causing the corruption of our language, so we are not allowed to call ourselves women, and even health services aimed at women (breast screening, cervical screening, maternity and breastfeeding services) are forced to use ‘inclusive’ language, like chest feeder, menstruator, pregnant person, birthing person that EXCLUDE women and reduce us to our bodily functions?

Do you understand why we are enraged that biological women are not allowed to meet together to discuss Female Genital Mutilation, female oppression, rape etc without violent verbal abuse being flung at them? Or that traumatised rape victims cannot have all-biologically female people around them in rape crisis centres? Why are we not allowed to say, politely, that we wish to meet without the presence of people born male?

Are you OK with the TRAs who threaten to rape or kill women who don’t toe the “Trans women are women” line? What about male bodied individuals who think it is wrong for lesbian women to say they don’t want penis-in-vagina sex, even if the penis-have says they are a woman and a lesbian? They issue rape threats too, btw.

Hi there,

As things stand, I think I have the rights that I need in the UK. There's a small number of things I would want enshrined in law:

Firstly, a guarantee that a trans woman would never have to share a hospital ward or prison cell with men. As mentioned before, third spaces seems to be the only practical solution here.

Secondly, a guarantee that whenever a dress code or uniform is gendered in nature, everyone (including children) should have the right to choose the option they are most comfortable with.

Thirdly, deliberately deadnaming or misgendering a trans person when asked not to to so should be considered a form of harassment in the workplace or in the context of the provision of services.

Obviously I also want to protect our existing rights, for example protection from discrimination.

Sadly in my case a lot of the damage is done since I went through the early part of my life (pre EA/GRA etc) believing that I did not have the right to present as female at work or in public places without facing discrimination or harassment. I was afraid to present as female in public, and I don't want young trans women today feeling the same way.

This caused me a lot of distress and greatly harmed my professional and personal development because I was so obsessed all the time about not being able to wear women's clothing and how unfair this was. This might not sound like a big deal to others, but it was very important to me.

I wore jogging bottoms (womens, as my shape means men's don't fit), unisex steel toe capped boots, a men's jumper I bought because I liked it from a charity shop, and a unisex branded t-shirt today. I don't wear make up or jewellery. I wear a fitbit, a standard unisex one. I have long hair that I usually have in a ponytail. My glasses frames are technically men's. That's fairly standard what I wear most days.

Wearing men's clothing doesn't mean I have transitioned, as you will know. So I'm not sure why you responded to people suggesting that you don't wear a dress of skirt so that you can feel safer using the men's toilets with the idea that that would be detransitioning.

There are thousands of outfits made for women that involve trousers. There are thousands of gender-neutral outfits, like a hoodie, jeans and trainers that women wear every day, far more often than we do dresses, skirts and heels, which are so often impractical, and attract unwanted harassment from men. We modify our choices of clothing and our behaviour to avoid sexual assault and rape from men every. darn. day. We shouldn't have to, we aren't the ones who are the problem. But we do. So reading you saying that modifying your clothing choices to avoid feeling at risk from male violence would be detransitioning and not something you would ever be prepared to do... that lands badly with us. If you are a woman, you modify your behaviour to avoid male violence. And frankly, most men I know also modify their behaviour to avoid male violence too.

@SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius

I'll think about your other questions when I get a chance, but first can I be categorial that threats to rape or kill people are utterly unacceptable in any context and a matter for criminal law.

I've used the loo in a dress @AlphaTransWoman. I didn't get anything more than funny looks. That was 20 years ago in a northern working men's club.

I think in most places in the UK you would not get any kind of grief- homophobia has massively declined and gender non-comfomity is common now.

there are many mixed sex wards though @AlphaTransWoman are you saying no to them

then who would make up the third spaces how can you run award with so few people needing to use it

cabt you see though that you are so against sharing spaces with a penis yet you want all of us too

and surely a better goal is to remove the idea that there is womens clothing and just have clothing and people wear what they are comfortable in

Firstly, a guarantee that a trans woman would never have to share a hospital ward or prison cell with men. As mentioned before, third spaces seems to be the only practical solution here.

I think before that we should have enshrined in law and enforced that women should not have to share a hospital ward or prison cell with any male bodied people whether or not they identify as women.

The problem @OP is that the TRAs are not campaigning for third spaces, they are campaigning to be in women's spaces. If the TRAs campaigned for third spaces and to be recognised as TW (rather than W) then 99.9% of the conflict would evaporate.

The point I was making is that forcing someone to wear clothing characteristic of a gender they do not identify with is demeaning. I'm sure you would agree that forcing a person identifying as a man (regardless of body sex) to wear a dress and heels would not be appropriate. Ditto expecting someone female identified to wear trousers.

Hi OP, I am impressed that you keep coming back, so thankyou for that. Can you address my stereotype question from earlier? (quoted)

Firstly, a guarantee that a trans woman would never have to share a hospital ward or prison cell with men.

Have you ever been in hospital for a non-sex or gender related reason? In that last, say, 20 years? Most wards are mixed sex these days. Our poor NHS hasn't got the funds for anything else. I'd be very happy with third spaces for those who don't wish to identify as their natal sex.

Secondly, a guarantee that whenever a dress code or uniform is gendered in nature, everyone (including children) should have the right to choose the option they are most comfortable with.

I would fully support that. I think this is already the case in most adult places of work in the UK these days. I have worked for some dreadful companies that insist that women should wear skirts though, which are impractical and often further affect female low waged staff as constantly buying new tights for work is a nonsense additional tax on women.

Thirdly, deliberately deadnaming or misgendering a trans person when asked not to to so should be considered a form of harassment in the workplace or in the context of the provision of services.

This one I have an issue with.
There are times when we NEED to be able to speak clearly about the SEX somebody is - that which is usually apparent from observation. Otherwise women get prosecuted for complaining that there is a man in their changing room. In their toilets. In their rape crisis centre.

I do think that trans people have the right to live free from harassment and cruelty, and would fully support strengthening laws around that that didn't disadvantage women.

There are a whole lot of things though that trousers are necessary, construction, hiking, skiing, - DD was absolutely expected for example to wear trousers when she went on her DoE expedition.

women have been forced in many jobs to wear a dress a heels, where flats and trousers would far more comfortable. Cabin crew for example

can’t you see that the rights you are asking for areNt what a women gets but MORE, you want more rights than we have and call your female at the same time

For college DD had to wear work trousers, steel capped boots and overalls.
She's still female.

Trousers are generally recognised to be unisex.

Don't be silly, it's not demeaning to have to wear trousers or other traditionally male clothing instead of a dress. There are numerous situations in which a dress would not be appropriate, comfortable or practical. I wouldn't feel demeaned by wearing trousers while going for a long walk in hilly countryside. I wouldn't feel demeaned by wearing a supermarket uniform with trousers when working in a supermarket. I wouldn't feel demeaned by wearing shorts to go running in. I wouldn't feel demeaned by wearing trousers or shorts full stop. Even if I was forced at gunpoint to wear trousers on a night out when I would have liked to wear a dress, I still wouldn't feel demeaned just possibly slightly disappointed.

The point I was making is that forcing someone to wear clothing characteristic of a gender they do not identify with is demeaning. I'm sure you would agree that forcing a person identifying as a man (regardless of body sex) to wear a dress and heels would not be appropriate. Ditto expecting someone female identified to wear trousers.

Actually I don't fully agree with you.

Firstly, the point that I, and I believe the person you were originally replying to, was making is that women wear trousers and gender-neutral outfits all the time. Furthermore we modify what we wear to avoid trouble (I.e. male violence) all the time. I don't think the person you were replying to meant you should wear men's clothing. I think they were suggesting that you could lower the risk that you perceive if you wore less obviously femised clothes. They can still be from female clothing manufacturers and female lines, still 100% female clothing.

Again, women wear trousers. Women's trousers. All the time. You can wear what you want, but let's have a bit more nuance then "trousers are for men". They most certainly are not, and actually it's pretty darn offensive to all women since the 1940s to say that they are. We wore them to take on "men's jobs" in WWI and WWII, decided that we liked them and working in jobs that weren't strictly defined by our sex, and fought heavily to be able to wear what we want and work in whatever jobs we want to.

I don't think forcing men to wear a dress and heels is any more appropriate than forcing women to wear a dress and heels, no. Heels are AWFUL for your feet and back, dresses are impractical and we want our dangerous pockets back while we are at it! Pencil skirts, high heels, fitted jackets and fitted dresses or skirts all restrict movement in ways that menswear generally doesn't. Restricted embodiment - it might show off the female figure (reducing us to sex objects again, yuck), but it is physically disempowering, which is also mentally disempowering. Women's clothing has been political for decades, and it's still a problem, still disempowering us right from newborn babies. So no, I don't think men OR women should be forced to wear this shit. I think everybody should have the freedom to choose to wear menswear or womenswear as they wish, and I think it should be normalised completely. The way that's going to happen is for men to wear skirts and heels if they wish, by the way - like this chap: https://metro.co.uk/2020/10/19/straight-married-dad-has-been-wearing-skirts-and-heels-to-work-for-years-to-challenge-gender-norms-13446579/ . More like him please!

Also to note that in certain situations trousers, boiler suits, stout boots etc are an absolute must for both sexes for safety reasons - and that there are many situations where anybody wearing a skirt has a high risk of public indecency. Do you think it is inappropriate to insist that women who want to go horseriding should wear trousers? Do you think that it is inappropriate to insist that women who want to take an exercise class should wear either trousers or shorts? Same question but for female electricians, plumbers, builders and gas engineers?

So do you literally only wear skirts and dresses?

That would make you pretty odd.

I don’t know any women who do this.

We all mostly wear trousers, and sometimes skirts or dresses. Rarely heels.

We’re not demeaned by wearing … clothes. We wear what’s practical, comfortable or appropriate for the event. We don’t get validation from clothes, because we are women regardless of our attire.

But again, we’re not the ones fixated on harmful, sexist, regressive stereotypes.

It’s trans activists forcing this damaging binary on the rest of the world.

I have been forced to wear trousers - as a Theatre nurse, I had to wear scrubs, and then in a local chamber choir, the uniform for the women was black trousers and tops - I didn’t find it demeaning, even though I strongly dislike the way I look and feel in trousers.

Again, you cling to the stereotypes, @AlphaTransWoman.

@bonjourcrisette You are very cool-headed in a crisis . "Even if I was forced at gunpoint to wear trousers on a night out when I would have liked to wear a dress, I still wouldn't feel demeaned just possibly slightly disappointed."

I’d be interested to know what sort of clothing the OP wears.

For some unknowable reason, I am imagining it is short skirts, tight, low-cut dresses and heels. And that is why the OP does not want to go into male toilets or changing rooms.

The OP thinks it’s demeaning not to be able to go around in this sort of clothing all the time, because the OP gets validation from short skirts and tight dresses.

Women don’t go around in clothes like this because we know what sort of attention clothing like that brings.

We don’t find it ‘demeaning’ not to wear that sort of clothing, because not wearing that sort of clothing provides us with a small degree of security and safety - i.e. we’re less like to draw unwanted attention to ourselves.

The OP wants to go about in the revealing clothing, believes it might be dangerous in the men’s, but is not willing to make the sort of concessions that actual women HAVE to make - daily - just to keep themselves safe.

Pure gender-normative behaviour for a male.

I'm a bit torn on this one.

On one hand, stereotyping is a form of learning by experience. Right from primary school I remember female teachers tending to be soft and maternal while the male ones were tough and demanding. Women just seem to be more agreeable in the vast majority of cases.

Of course, some men are lovely too. But all the bullying I got at school was at the hands of boys. I got beaten up once by a group of boys from the local comprehensive because I was wearing the uniform of the grammar school. I'm pretty sure girls don't do that. Even as an adult, all the casual insults I have had from strangers (transphobic or otherwise) has come from a man. Every single one. So yeah, I'm scared of men I don't know. Especially groups of noisy young men like football fans.

However - and I think this is what you are getting at - it is wrong to assume all individuals are going to conform to the stereotype. I agree entirely. But I don't like the idea of being a "man" because of the behaviours stereotypically associated with men. I'd rather be on Team Kind than Team Nasty.

Does that make sense?

Unfortunately it is your behaviour that marks you out as entitled male, and firmly on Team Nasty, @AlphaTransWoman. Just like womanhood, you can’t identify into Team Kind.

all the bullying I got at school was at the hands of boys. I got beaten up once by a group of boys from the local comprehensive because I was wearing the uniform of the grammar school. I'm pretty sure girls don't do that

Are you for real now?!! All the bullying I got at school was from girls. There is no sex that is more likely to be a bully. I imagine girls tend to bully girls, boys tend to bully boys.

you likely weren't bullied by girls about your uniform because girls are taught and observe from a young age that boys and men are more likely to be violent. It wasn't that there were less girls who were bullies in your area - it was that the girls who were bullies had some self-preservation.

My worst bully (a girl) challenged me to a fight one day after school. I showed up, despite being terrified and not in any way a fighter. She didn't - quite likely because I was taller and heavier then her, and she had some sense of self-preservation.

The fairer sex is a fairytale.

Actually I dress pretty conservatively. Normally it's a calf length dress or skirt with some sort of nice top and a cardigan. If I go into the office it will be a dark suit and smart blouse because it makes me feel confident to dress like a boss. Tight or revealing clothes just wouldn't suit me because of my body shape.

Admittedly I sometimes wear jogging pants for, well, jogging. And gardening/DIY. But I would never go out shopping or socialising dressed like that.

But all the bullying I got at school was at the hands of boys. I got beaten up once by a group of boys from the local comprehensive because I was wearing the uniform of the grammar school. I'm pretty sure girls don't do that

What?!

Girls are just as vicious as boys!

You have absolutely no idea how vicious girls can be to other girls at school.

The emotional and mental bullying is as bad, if not much worse, with long term consequences.

I'll give you misgendering if your lot give up calling me "cis"