to ask why people still do not believe that Islamophobia doesn’t exist and therefore doesn’t need an official definition?

Funny my Muslim pal and I have been to the bar together. She had a soft drink like, but I had wine.
We work together and she's a very well known and well loved character at work, definitely no keeping herself to herself.

Out of interest, was that at the request of a non-drinking member of staff? Or was it a manager requesting it to try and be inclusive of non-drinking staff?

We had that conversation within our organisation a few years ago, and our Muslim staff were very clear that they preferred certain types of venue over others but they definitely didn't want to stop others from enjoying a drink etc if that's what they wanted. Of course, that's just our staff, others may have different views.

Yeah, I have got to know plenty of Muslim women - through work, through volunteering and at the school gates, as neighbours etc. Some are naturally outgoing, others are quite shy, but I never found any of them in the least bit unfriendly or standoffish.

I can think of a couple that probably wouldn't have interacted with me if I hadn't made an effort to speak to them, but that's just the way with some people. Plus one wasn't that confident with her English, and frankly, who knows what their previous experiences with white women might have been and whether that might have made them a bit wary. Either way, once the ice was broken, I found them perfectly normal and friendly. No different really from any other women that I've met.

No it was an informal works night out, not specifically requested through management. I think your experience is a perfect example of compromise - choose a venue acceptable to all and then it's up to individuals to drink if so desired.

Sky News is reporting on a mosque in the North East that has said it will provide cold drinks and burgers to any protesters that turn up there this weekend. And inviting them in for a chat about "their concerns".

What an incredible, magnanimous response to the threats that they have received. I can only hope that the thugs don't throw this gesture back in their faces with more violence and intimidation. Who knows, they might actually even learn something.

Seems that the mosque is channelling Michelle Obama. When they go low...

The dehumanising of female muslims blows my mind
We support anyone dressing in which way they choose however when a Muslim woman chooses to wear abaya, hijab or niqab they are suddenly oppressed and are subjected to people acting as though they have no choice, as though their wants aren’t respected because they look different

A definition could include:
a) derogatory comments about dress
b) stereotypes connecting Muslims with terrorism
c)tropes about Muslim culture as savage or uncivilised
d) tropes about Muslims wanting to take over the world
e) attacking mosques or intimidating the people attending
f) any verbal abuse or physical attack based on the victim being Muslim

I'm sorry that the thread has gone off topic, OP.

As a non-Muslim, I don't really feel qualified to specify what should be in a definition of Islamophobia. However, I imagine that trawling through this thread would probably be quite a good starting point for compiling a list.

I should add I'm not Muslim, so my suggestions for a working definition are not as relevant as those from someone who is.

It is already covered by hate crime legislation and to add further infringements to free speech seem to be unnecessary.Attacking mosques or intimidating the people attending, any verbal abuse or physical attack based on the victim being Muslim are covered by this already.

Once it has been implemented the police would be using all their time on policing twitter and social media for Islamophobia and less resources on tackling violent crime.

It would give one section of society a separate governance from another. For example a muslim would be able to make derogatory comments about the way a white girl was dressed without breaking the law whereas the other way round would be a crime.

Sometimes I do have concerns about non British attitudes towards women. When working in Scotland as a doctor - which is nowhere near as diversified as London and the south- I was always treated with the utmost respect by my male colleagues. Thereafter I got a job down south after completing my foundation years and it was the first time I found myself working as a doctor in a team of predominately male Drs and from places including Iran, Sudan, Lebanon. I kid you not - the following actually happened. On a ward round one day- some of these male doctors took it upon themselves to openly discuss my appearance and attractiveness on a quantifiable scale- with one announcing that I “pass” and am quite good - but I just need a breast enhancement. A boob job. They also used to conduct some ward rounds speaking Arabic to the point where some patients were visibly uncomfortable and complained to management. Who did nothing. These same doctors were applying for permanent residence after working for 5 years - on some occasions asking me to witness/sign their applications. I know that in Scotland I would never have been told I need a boob job by my male colleagues. I don’t know how to express concerns/questions regarding others cultural attitudes towards women - without people quick to jump on you as being right wing. So I said nothing and let the boob job comment side. I left that hospital.

@qwerty14 A working definition clarifies the issue so that governments and law makers can be clear on what we are talking about. Hate crime laws are not sufficient, as this thread is full of demonising tropes and stereotypes and so are other forms of media. If they were sufficient we would not have a society that tolerates the persecution of a minority. We can argue about dress, it is just an example of othering. The point is that the perpetration of negative stereotypes and untruths can lead to violence against that group, as demonstrated by recent rioters. Therefore we need to fully analyse how this othering works, name it and include it in our laws and policies.

@3CustardCreams Terrible. Anecdotally I've had a hand down my top by a welsh colleague while others stood around and did nothing, an English boss who wanted me to sit on his knee, the threat of gang rape by a group of Australian men, been assaulted by a group of teenage Portugese boys, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I don't think bad attitude from men to women belongs to just one culture.

It's an idelogically tendencious term, which is used to gaslight anyone expressing legitimate concerns about islamic terror, and the threat to freedom of speech and democracy posed by islamic fundamentalists.

I am much more concerned about the Israelophobia, which is running rampant amongs the 'woke' brigade, and moslems, and my thoughts are with the hostages and their loved ones. Israel is under seige surrounded by hostile Iranian proxies. The fears of Israelis, and their supporters, are real and not part of a 'phobia'.

All of which could already come under hate speech.

Oh wow that’s awful.
I mean yes I guess maybe it could be more of a men thing than a cultural thing. But I’d never experienced it so overly until then.

@3CustardCreams I think it's misogyny and sexual harassment, which is depressingly common. I am sorry you experienced that.

That's dreadful. I had no idea it was so bad up there.

If I go mile end, east London in a skirt, I get stared at and dirty looks by Muslim women and cat called by Muslim men
No I'm not white either and I grew up a Muslim.

This is the type of reason why people don't like those who follow the religion or care about your woos.

I went to university in Mile End. I often wore short skirts. I am also a Muslim. My experience wasn’t like that at all.

My lived experience was different to yours so I can’t categorise Mile End Muslims like you do.

I know they exist in all communities, just like one of most things exist in all communities. I was trying to make the point that when these idiots want to attack the whole Islamic community for something one Muslim has done (or not in this particular case), it would be like saying to them that because you are a white, balding, middle aged man (which if you look at the demographic of the rioters they are) then I could accuse them of being something because other white, balding, middle aged men are..

No. Because my post is relevant, and you are being disingenuous to prerend otherwise.

This a public forum and I will post as I like. I suspect your definition of "islamaphobia" would be any opinion about islam you happen to disagree with and want to censor.