to ask why people still do not believe that Islamophobia doesn’t exist and therefore doesn’t need an official definition?

But then is that not our job to include Muslims and make activities for all
i.e in work places, schools etc, make sure any party or celebration is including those of different religion/race/culture
I can’t imagine it’s encouraging for Muslims who want to integrate if they feel left out of everything

No, I support individual women making choices about what they wear.

I know lots of Muslim women who choose to wear the hijab and lots that don't. I think it's right that all should be able to decide for themselves.

And many Muslim women don't feel they have a choice. There is a huge amount of pressure on them to conform and wear hijab, with many threats or actual violence to women who don't conform. The same way that forced marriage or FGM is, apparently, illegal in the UK but still goes ahead. And, yes, I do realise that those are found in other cultures / religions. Men make the rules, it's still the case. Religion, all types, were founded, thought up by men, they made the rules.

Yes. I wish they'd not allow people to wear indecent clothes showing arse cheeks hanging out the back of shorts either.

Both - burqa or highly sexualised clothing is built around the needs and desires of men in the prevailing culture.

So you want the state to control what women wear. Who should be tasked with deciding what is and isn't suitable attire, I wonder? Will it be MPs, of which the majority are currently male?

Seems like you might have more in common with the Taliban than you thought...

They seem to manage it in France.

Well, of course I don't support women not having a choice. Where that is happening, it definitely needs to be tackled. Just as all forms of misogyny and coercive control in our society need to be tackled.

But not all Muslim women are oppressed and being forced to wear the hijab. Many want to. I have one Muslim friend who chooses to wear it in spite of the protestations from her Muslim husband and Muslim father who worry that it will make her a target for racists. Do you want her choice to be taken away? Why does it bother you that she wants to wear a headscarf?

As I said, all religions are made by men. When I went to university in 1974 there were lots of Muslim students. A huge number were from Iraq / Iran, they wore exactly the same clothes as my friends and I did. Look at those countries now. Look at the number of women in the UK who do wear hijab now, when previously they didn't. There has been a huge push from certain Muslim sects to persuade Muslims that their version of Islam is correct. It's a retrograde movement, look at pictures of Iran during the time of the shah and now. So, banning hijab, facecoverings etc is, to me a step forwards.

I cannot ever agree with you that a majority male parliament voting on what women should be allowed to wear is ever going to be a step forwards.

Absolutely, we should support Muslim communities - and especially Muslim women - to tackle extremism and abuse within their communities, but we can't just assume that all Muslim women are somehow victims without any agency over their own lives.

I didn't say you are the Taliban. I said that you have more in common with them than you think, because of your desire to control what women wear. (And yes, you said people... that includes women the last time I checked.)

I dealt with many Muslim women, in my job, who were under extreme pressure to conform. I started that job thinking that, in the late twentieth century, women actually had choices about what they wore, who they married, whether they could go out. It didn't take long for me to understand that many women have little choice. Being threatened with violence because they want to live the lives that other young women have, making decisions for themselves. My favourite line from one bloke was ' we marry our women off early so they don't misbehave'. He expected me to agree with him and think his point of view was wholly acceptable. His sister wasn't allowed out by herself, she would have been unmarrigable if he gave her any freedom. And this is going on in perfectly usual places in the UK. As I said Islam has become a retrograde religion.
I only ever saw one person in a similar position who wasn't a Muslim and he was a Sikh and was threatened with a shotgun by his relative when he refused an arranged marriage. And there was a sizable Sikh presence where I lived.
Why do you think the age of marriage is now 18? Because it minimises forced marriage.
I'll leave it there.

So you worked with a number of Muslim women and you assume that they're all the same?

Of course there are Muslim women that are subjected to abuse and controlling behaviour. Of course those women need our help and support. But abuse and controlling behaviour takes many forms and manifests itself in many different communities. That doesn't make all women victims that lack the power to make decisions for themselves.

Why should head and face coverings be banned? My catholic granny always wore a head covering outside of the house.

also… I am not Muslim, but like to cover up when swimming. I don’t think there is any need for my body to be on public display

You have no right whatsoever in telling other women what they can and cannot wear.

I support women deciding what they want to wear themselves.
And if it’s a hijab: then they should be able to wear it.

It's a very illogical position to say that women are unde pressure from one group of people dictating how they should dress so we will address this by getting a different group of people to dictate how they should dress instead. How is that actually empowering anyone?

What makes you feel that you have a right to determine what type of clothing is acceptable when you seem to object to women being under pressure from other people who have reached different decisions about what type of clothing is acceptable?

Why can't we work towards a society where women are free to make their own choices about what they wear without being accused of a lack of modesty or of provoking sexual assault etc. Women own their own bodies and should be encouraged to dress as they themselves deem appropriate.

I'm saying it's very, very common. You know, I've had this discussion so many times and really it's just become very tedious. I'm sure you know lots of Muslim women who have great lives, but equally there are many who don't, because of religion. You probably think that putting imans and community leaders in a room and telling them that in the UK we do things differently would make them all change their minds. It wouldn't. Because religion dominates them.
And just for info, the people I talked about in a previous post where those I have dealt with professionally. People who needed assistance to get to a place of safety. Because they were petrified of what what would happen to them. I've had to phone for a taxi that wouldnt have a Muslim driver because they knew he would tell their father exactly where they were going. The local women's refuge dealt with a taxi firm that had no Muslim drivers because the 1st thing they did was to tell the family where the daughter was.
Sorry for the rant, but all of that is true. We have generations of people born in the UK who don't respect its laws or embrace the idea that women have choices.

And what has the UK got from this exactly ?

So many people who don't respect our laws and yet living in a Muslim country is unacceptable to them also because they're here.

What exactly do they want?

I know lots of women that have shit lives because of sexism and misogyny in all its shapes and forms. What makes you think misogyny and VAWG are a uniquely Islamic problems? Yes, we absolutely need to address these issues within Muslim communities, but let's not kid ourselves rust similar problems don't exist elsewhere. Yes, they might sometimes take on a particular flavour when the victims are Muslim - e.g. being forced to dress a certain way as opposed to some other form of controlling behaviour- but the problems are universal.

And yes, I do know many Muslim women who have great lives. And many more with pretty average ones.

I don't think it's unique to Islam. I'm trying to point out to you that, within the time scales of my adult life, I have seen the practice of Islam going backwards. It's not making women's lives easier, generally.

Ok, but what makes you think you will make their lives easier by banning the hijab?

If they are being abused by controlling family members who won't let them go out without the hijab, perhaps banning it will mean that those women won't be allowed to go out at all. Is that going to make their lives better, do you think?

I see it from both sides really. You've had positive experiences of people from differing backgrounds, happily socialising together and the other poster, well hasn't. ultimately, people use anecdotal evidence to determine their personal viewpoint, be it right or wrong. Would you be happy if you were asked to refrain from drinking alcohol entirely whilst in the presence of some school mums, even though you have already compromised with choice of restaurant rather than pub? Do you have a boundary where you will relinquish your own ' needs/wants' in the attempt to make others feel more comfortable? I think therein lies the rub for many, how bendable and willing others are to accommodate other people's choices.

Personally, I'd be quite happy not to drink if it made a mums' night out more inclusive. It wouldn't really bother me that much either way.

But equally, I don't think any of the Muslim women I know would object to others drinking alcohol at a meal.

It's a bit like me being a vegetarian. I don't want to eat meat myself and I would decline an invitation to one of those restaurants where meat is the main event and they carve big joints at the tables because that kind of environment would not be very comfortable for me. But I really couldn't care less if other people choose to eat meat when we're together in a normal restaurant.

Yes, I've done the same on ' work's night out' whereby I haven't drank alcohol upon request. Nandos and a glass of coke it was. this was a good few years ago now and I was happy to do so at the time. But if I really question myself ( may be it's an advancing age/ introspective thing), I don't know if this actually sits comfortably with me and I'm not certain I'd make the same choice again. Always interesting to get other people's perspective!