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to ask why people still do not believe that Islamophobia doesn’t exist and therefore doesn’t need an official definition?

332 replies

AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 00:43

This is a question for the general public , After the recent events , where a horrific unimaginable event that has left a community and parents shattered , reeling from the loss of their babies - the first thing that a significant group did was to attack who they thought were to blame.
and it was the Muslim community.
without verification , confirmation , the hatred was palpable -it was always there.

As a muslim ; every time something like this happens, I know all of us pause and are frightened whether the perpetrators are Muslim and - when they are not - then there are no fingers pointed to whether their religion is to blame for their actions.
the entire community isn’t put to trial.
I am so sad for the senseless loss that the parents and families are going through.
My heart goes our to them,
as my friend who is a hijab wearing Muslim said earlier today -thank god he wasn’t Muslim otherwise they would have come and killed us in our sleep. It hit me to the core how much some people hate us?
I feel this is an injustice to my 70 year old mother who prays 5 times a day, loves her god and has not harmed a single person in her life , my sister who is a confidant professional woman but will not travel out of multi cultural areas for fear of being attacked.

still the government refused to put an official definition for Islamophobia?
having grown experiencing huge levels of it in the early 90/ , I feel that those that do not believe that the Muslim community are hated by other for simply being Muslim are just ignoring it or are part of the problem .
I feel sad for my children , who don’t speak the language their parents speak, only belong to this country but look visibly different and belong to a religion that is hated so much and the government can’t protect them.

OP posts:
AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 02:01

LightFull · 02/08/2024 01:54

I think people are confused with regards to Muslims

There are so many different off shoots doing devastating things

There is conflict within families who when members don't tie the line as it were

We are culturally at odds with the nature of this religion at times

Maybe get to know ordinary Muslims?
realise that we are like everyone else - who is also different and unique in each family?

the respnses on this post is very enlightening and make me question even more why we dont have a definition in place

OP posts:
MrsBrightsidde · 02/08/2024 02:01

PoppyBlack · 02/08/2024 01:51

As an aside, I wish we could come up with a different descriptive word to describe hijab wearing other than ' modest' clothing. Who defines modesty? What on earth does it really mean? Someone helpfully pointed out on another thread that it's far better than choosing ' indecent ' dress which attracts the male gaze. Perhaps she was being clumsy with her choice of words, but it felt unsettling to suggest that a woman's character could be determined by their choice of dress. So yes I agree, women should be able to wear what they bloody well want without judgement. Bikinis/ hijabs/ abaya/ boob tubes all absolutely acceptable!

Yes, yet you are judging the hijab in the same post…

MrsBrightsidde · 02/08/2024 02:02

OP - you were brave starting this thread. It will no doubt get derailed by posters telling you why they don’t like Islam, which is what always happens on Mumsnet. Hope you have your hard hat on.

LightFull · 02/08/2024 02:04

@MrsBrightsidde

It's culture and religion my dear

Especially as you go on to mention 2 more religions in your own post to make your point

Oh dear people do fall flat on their faces when trying to take the moral high ground

SaltyChocolate · 02/08/2024 02:04

I feel like having more leaders from the community speaking out would probably help. Full disclaimer I don't watch much TV but from what I do see I don't think it's that representative. I wonder sometimes if we are that progressive.

PoppyBlack · 02/08/2024 02:07

MrsBrightsidde · 02/08/2024 02:01

Yes, yet you are judging the hijab in the same post…

Interesting how you came to that conclusion. But hey ho, it is rather late after all so I'll excuse you.

MrsBrightsidde · 02/08/2024 02:09

LightFull · 02/08/2024 02:04

@MrsBrightsidde

It's culture and religion my dear

Especially as you go on to mention 2 more religions in your own post to make your point

Oh dear people do fall flat on their faces when trying to take the moral high ground

Ok, please point me to the scripture in Islam, Hinduism and Sikhism that condones forced marriages and honour killings.

Or maybe, the common theme amongst those three religions is the culture…

Then tell me who falls flat on their face. Resorting to insults to make your point looks desperate, my dear.

LightFull · 02/08/2024 02:09

Well it doesn't help that many Muslim women and their children do not integrate even now with members of their community

DC not allowed to parties with their school friends they've been invited to

Muslim mothers never going on mum nights out when invited

It's really sad actually

Obviously this is not always the case but very common nevertheless

AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 02:10

To those people who have started to derail this about the hijab - I will not bother responding .

yet again highlighting how women have a choice to wear what they want unless they look like Muslims

OP posts:
MrsBrightsidde · 02/08/2024 02:11

PoppyBlack · 02/08/2024 02:07

Interesting how you came to that conclusion. But hey ho, it is rather late after all so I'll excuse you.

It is late so if I misunderstood your post, apologies.

I’ll be heading to bed before I get too carried away on this thread. I know exactly which direction it’s going to head in so best save my sanity.

LightFull · 02/08/2024 02:12

Omg @MrsBrightsidde you just keep contradicting yourself

You literally inferred on you previous post that Sikh and Hindus have forced marriages with regards to my PP

Are you drunk ? You are all over the place with your replies

It's too nonsensical for me to engage with you further

MrsBrightsidde · 02/08/2024 02:15

LightFull · 02/08/2024 02:12

Omg @MrsBrightsidde you just keep contradicting yourself

You literally inferred on you previous post that Sikh and Hindus have forced marriages with regards to my PP

Are you drunk ? You are all over the place with your replies

It's too nonsensical for me to engage with you further

Again, insults. Because you cannot argue against the point that it’s a cultural issue rather than a religious one, you resort to insults. How mature of you.

No wonder you won’t engage any further because you know very well you can’t back up your claim.

Good night.

Bergmum · 02/08/2024 02:21

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stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 02:24

I think working towards a definition of anti-Muslim prejudice would be a very good thing. Islamophobia implies a fear of islam, to me. From what I see the prejudice is not based on fear, but hatred. It is not only about a religion, but about the colour of people's skin, their different culture, their dress. I think I cross posted with @Bergmum

AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 02:25

stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 02:24

I think working towards a definition of anti-Muslim prejudice would be a very good thing. Islamophobia implies a fear of islam, to me. From what I see the prejudice is not based on fear, but hatred. It is not only about a religion, but about the colour of people's skin, their different culture, their dress. I think I cross posted with @Bergmum

Thanks
that’s interesting - I agree semantics is important

OP posts:
stormy4319trevor · 02/08/2024 02:29

I just think a working definition would offer more protection OP. It would also mean that it would be taken more seriously. I don't think the term islamophobia is serious or precise enough to describe the abuse Muslims face. And it's everywhere, implicit in media like the DM, freely voiced by an ex PM, now energised by the far right groups who stirred up false rumours around the awful events in Southport.

AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 02:30

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Is this statistic backed up? By who?

so what about ‘attacks ‘ in general?
what about the murder of the lovely Jo Cox, would that have been terror?
the IRA attacks ? Were not terror?
although that was obviously political despite the defining characteristics being religious differences.

OP posts:
Mumandcarer80 · 02/08/2024 02:35

It definitely does there are plans to build an islamic prayer centre near where I live. The majority of the comments on the local news site are positive. There's just a minority that are ignorant. Some comment from a fake Facebook page But each time there's an article about it there's hundreds of comments. Which would only usually happen if it's a high profile case or issue.

There are quite a few staff who work at the local hospital who are Muslim. As well as business owners and staff that work in the business and their families. There's always the usual why can't they just use an old church?🙄

Then there's the odd time there's an ethnic SO. Not many comments if the SO is white British. But any other nationality there's a huge debate. A SO is a SO no matter what race they are.

Mumandcarer80 · 02/08/2024 02:37

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Me too it's not a phobia it's more of a hatred.

youve987456 · 02/08/2024 02:41

I am not a Muslim and am not religious but Islamaphobia is there and it is real. I live in London and it makes me so mad when people refer to it as Londonistan and I see that more often than I should on the socials. I have never once come across any Muslim person that has caused me any issues. It doesn't mean there are no issues within the community but there are issues within all communities.
I'd love to have the guts to tell people who are currently 'protesting' that most convicted paedophiles and wife beaters in this country are white, balding and middle aged men like them so that must make them a paedophile and wife beater, they would tell me I am ridiculous. Yet, it would literally be no different to what they are doing.

TooBigForMyBoots · 02/08/2024 02:44

The only people who deny Islamophia is a thing are Islamophibic or benefit from Islamophobia. Racists, xenophobes etc.

Most people know what it means.

YANBU @AdvicePleas.

StepAwayFromGoogling · 02/08/2024 02:46

But to return to the OP,,, what happened in Southport was horrific. What then happened is that a vocal group whipped everyone into a frenzy on Twitter that the perpetrator was from the Muslim community. And further that they should therefore attack a mosque. These people are clearly not bright and prone to hatred and violence. They exist in all societies and all walks of life. They are not representative of the population. And, yes, laws should exist to protect anyone from violence.

sashh · 02/08/2024 02:49

PoppyBlack · 02/08/2024 01:51

As an aside, I wish we could come up with a different descriptive word to describe hijab wearing other than ' modest' clothing. Who defines modesty? What on earth does it really mean? Someone helpfully pointed out on another thread that it's far better than choosing ' indecent ' dress which attracts the male gaze. Perhaps she was being clumsy with her choice of words, but it felt unsettling to suggest that a woman's character could be determined by their choice of dress. So yes I agree, women should be able to wear what they bloody well want without judgement. Bikinis/ hijabs/ abaya/ boob tubes all absolutely acceptable!

Just an aside to the general thread but I hate 'modest' too. Both my grandmothers were modest women, I never saw either of them wear trousers.

My nan would cover her head in church.

Ideas about modesty are cultural.

OP

To go back to your original post I think it is a form of racism. I say this because when someone says 'muslim' in this country they generally don't think of a white person.

On of my colleagues was shocked when I said the Kosovan girls in the class were muslim. And she was muslim herself.

StepAwayFromGoogling · 02/08/2024 02:49

youve987456 · 02/08/2024 02:41

I am not a Muslim and am not religious but Islamaphobia is there and it is real. I live in London and it makes me so mad when people refer to it as Londonistan and I see that more often than I should on the socials. I have never once come across any Muslim person that has caused me any issues. It doesn't mean there are no issues within the community but there are issues within all communities.
I'd love to have the guts to tell people who are currently 'protesting' that most convicted paedophiles and wife beaters in this country are white, balding and middle aged men like them so that must make them a paedophile and wife beater, they would tell me I am ridiculous. Yet, it would literally be no different to what they are doing.

Paedophiles exist everywhere. Within all communities. What makes you think they are restricted to white, balding, middle age men? What a peculiar post.

Chucklit · 02/08/2024 02:51

TipsyJoker · 02/08/2024 01:14

I think the UK is a pretty tolerant country tbh. We accept people for who they are on the whole. We have equality laws, hate crime legislation and always promote diversity and inclusion. Just like there are extremists within the Muslim community, there are extremists in other communities. However, these are the minority. Most people are pretty accepting and tolerant, otherwise we wouldn’t have such diverse ethnic groups, races, religions and events like pride, etc. No-ones holding pride events in Saudi or Russia. Catholics are being killed by Boko haram in Nigeria. We don’t stone women to death in this country for being raped and calling it adultery. There are far more dangerous places to be a minority in the world than the UK. I’m not blaming an entire community/race or religion for the actions of an extreme minority and I don’t think the majority of British people are either.

Bull fucking shit, they are not tolerant. I've had my nose broken for "being a goth", been spat at in the face several times, been slapped in the face in the street, had someone rub a burger all over my face, been chased several times with my heart absolutely racing with fear, I've been pulled backwards by my hair. I was egged from a passing car while heavily pregnant. People here are not fucking tolerant. I am 34. The disgust towards my appearance is still happening. What I have described is nowhere near what people up and down the country experience due to racism.
Now we're in balaclava thug land. I physically turn my head away from them walking down the street with my daughter so that they won't spot me and target us. We can't go shopping in our local town centre because balaclavas on bikes are daily assaulting "normal" people and the police can't control how widespread it is even there, nevermind across our region. Our biggest park, people are wary of going to, especially after dark. Merseyside. And the town centre is Birkenhead. Friends of mine have had to get dentures fitted after a thug punched out their front teeth. For looking different.
Tolerant my arse. I’m sorry for the long response but there is no fucking way I can let that slide without speaking up.
Do not assume that the whole of the UK is tolerant. I hope I've made it clear that it is not. This isn’t just a problem here, it's all over.