to ask why people still do not believe that Islamophobia doesn’t exist and therefore doesn’t need an official definition?

AdvicePleas · 2024-08-01T23:43:58+00:00

This is a question for the general public , After the recent events , where a horrific unimaginable event that has left a community and parents shattered , reeling from the loss of their babies - the first thing that a significant group did was to attack who they thought were to blame. and it was the Muslim community. without verification , confirmation , the hatred was palpable -it was always there. As a muslim ; every time something like this happens, I know all of us pause and are frightened whether the perpetrators are Muslim and - when they are not - then there are no fingers pointed to whether their religion is to blame for their actions. the entire community isn’t put to trial. I am so sad for the senseless loss that the parents and families are going through. My heart goes our to them, as my friend who is a hijab wearing Muslim said earlier today -thank god he wasn’t Muslim otherwise they would have come and killed us in our sleep. It hit me to the core how much some people hate us? I feel this is an injustice to my 70 year old mother who prays 5 times a day, loves her god and has not harmed a single person in her life , my sister who is a confidant professional woman but will not travel out of multi cultural areas for fear of being attacked. still the government refused to put an official definition for Islamophobia? having grown experiencing huge levels of it in the early 90/ , I feel that those that do not believe that the Muslim community are hated by other for simply being Muslim are just ignoring it or are part of the problem . I feel sad for my children , who don’t speak the language their parents speak, only belong to this country but look visibly different and belong to a religion that is hated so much and the government can’t protect them.

mummytelling · 07/08/2024 16:29

I went to an inner city London school. Lots of my good friends were from the Middle East / Muslim. I am white British (not ethnically English tho). Muslims are some of the nicest hospitable people you could meet. however I think of late the religion doesn't help itself. There are elements within it that are extremely non-compromising and not accepting of other religions either. Not individuals as such but the religion as a whole. I think recently in Iraq, under principles of sharia, they will also reduce age a girl can marry from 15 to 9, and it's these kind of actions in Muslim countries under the principles of Islam, which make some people very apprehensive of what the religion means to people here in Britain. I'm not criticising, I'm just saying many things done in the name of Islam, make some people fearful of it.

EilonwyWithRedGoldHair · 06/08/2024 14:39

AdvicePleas · 05/08/2024 09:44

But the guidelines means you can see still think
hmm… If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck..’’ even if it denies it’s not one 🙃

there seems to a be a lot of posters here who know a Muslim woman- very well that is either being forced to wear a hijab, in an awful marriage , being controlled or friends with Muslims but they sill hate everything Islam represents?
hmmm.
again the above information wasn’t relevant to this post l.

Don’t get me wrong , I do think prejudice can sometimes be nuanced and we do need to sometimes look inwardly and reflect and if you can do that when someone’s calls you out , then that’s helpful. A lot of work , but many would rather create camps that we sit in.

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On the other side of that, I had a Muslim friend for a number of years who didn't wear a head scarf because she was too scared of receiving abuse from Islamophobic/racist twats on the street.

I don't think people should be forced to dress in a certain way no matter which side the pressure is coming from.

NewGreenDuck · 06/08/2024 13:49

Actually I don't mind criticising any religion, but this thread was about Islamophobia, not a general thread about religion and whether it's good, whether criticism is OK, how far that should go, if there should be blasphemy laws etc. If a thread on that is started I would contribute.

Mumandcarer80 · 06/08/2024 09:00

AdvicePleas · 02/08/2024 18:35

Thank you for those that actually responded to the original question .

Looking at the thread, it seems it has been derailed and monopolised into an opportunity to bash women that wear hijabs with a thinly disguised veil of ‘concern’.
And that is a form of Islamophobia that I am talking about -
Those that have discussed why women are being controlled , being made to cover up would never care about women’s rights in other context, why other religions have head covering, turbans , clothing etc etc but it’s an issue if it’s Muslims .

muslim women as all women are not one homogeneous group, we do not represent anyone but ourselves , however this is not the topic of the thread.

If there was a working definition of islamaphobia ot whatever you want to call it , what do you think it should include?

It's ignorance nobody says anything about a church priest or the pope.

There's a local Buddhist centre in a town close to where I live. There's a woods on site that the public are allowed to access. We often see the monks in the grounds they run a cafe in the centre. Also see them out in the community in their marroon robes.

Humdingerydoo · 05/08/2024 11:05

AdvicePleas · 05/08/2024 09:44

But the guidelines means you can see still think
hmm… If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck..’’ even if it denies it’s not one 🙃

there seems to a be a lot of posters here who know a Muslim woman- very well that is either being forced to wear a hijab, in an awful marriage , being controlled or friends with Muslims but they sill hate everything Islam represents?
hmmm.
again the above information wasn’t relevant to this post l.

Don’t get me wrong , I do think prejudice can sometimes be nuanced and we do need to sometimes look inwardly and reflect and if you can do that when someone’s calls you out , then that’s helpful. A lot of work , but many would rather create camps that we sit in.

Show quote history

Even when identified as a duck they usually have a lot of other people quacking their support right behind them, spurring them on and defending them and quacking on about how it's actually my fault as I'm hearing the words and not the supposed intent or meaning. Gaslighting is a big issue with racists. Having a definition genuinely doesn't seem to have helped, at least not in my experience. That's not to say there shouldn't be one, I'm just saying it doesn't seem to have made a difference to individuals affected by antisemitism, so I'm assuming it would be the same for those suffering at the hands of Islamophobes.

Original poster

AdvicePleas · 05/08/2024 09:44

Humdingerydoo · 05/08/2024 07:52

No, it really doesn't seem to have helped. People spend an awful lot of time saying they don't care what the the definition says because they disagree with it and they're not being antisemitic when they say X Y and Z because they have a Jewish friend, don'tcha know, so it's impossible for them to be antisemitic.

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But the guidelines means you can see still think
hmm… If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck..’’ even if it denies it’s not one 🙃

there seems to a be a lot of posters here who know a Muslim woman- very well that is either being forced to wear a hijab, in an awful marriage , being controlled or friends with Muslims but they sill hate everything Islam represents?
hmmm.
again the above information wasn’t relevant to this post l.

Don’t get me wrong , I do think prejudice can sometimes be nuanced and we do need to sometimes look inwardly and reflect and if you can do that when someone’s calls you out , then that’s helpful. A lot of work , but many would rather create camps that we sit in.

OP posts:

Humdingerydoo · 05/08/2024 07:52

AdvicePleas · 05/08/2024 04:53

Thank you for your comments calling this out - it is appreciated.
Especially on a thread quite literally designed to ask how to tackle this - it is very telling isn’t jt?

Do you not think having a clear definition of what antisemitism has helped?

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No, it really doesn't seem to have helped. People spend an awful lot of time saying they don't care what the the definition says because they disagree with it and they're not being antisemitic when they say X Y and Z because they have a Jewish friend, don'tcha know, so it's impossible for them to be antisemitic.

Namechangedforsensitivity · 05/08/2024 05:18

AdvicePleas · 05/08/2024 04:55

I have no words - what has that got to with me and my thread?

I’ll leave this again for others to make what they want.. which I’m sure many will find a link between me and your white British teenager .
you have no idea what ethnicity I am btw

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What do you have no words for? The fact that there are situations happening which are not positive? Thats life.

You asked about Islamophobia and you’ve been given an example of an ingrained culture in a school - you assume it’s my teenager which is not correct - if this how the kids are treating each other, how do you suggest to counter negative perceptions, when certain children are being targeted and bullied because they are from a different religion and culture. To the point it’s unsafe for them to attend that school because they are white British. I am referring to children here, they are far more impressionable than adults to state the obvious.

How do you suggest the school navigates these issues, as they do actually persist today? This is very much to do with the topic you raised you just don’t like some of the responses.

You claim there is an issue but then you should be able to discuss solutions, not shut others down.

Your ethnicity as is mine is completely irrelevant btw but you raised a very triggering topic so you need to be able to discuss the hard parts too. These hard parts include real life examples of things which are not good, so if you want to hypothesise rather start a different thread. What did you want from posting?

Anyway I’ve reported this thread as it’s really not helping matters.

31messages · 05/08/2024 05:01

In answer to your question and as this thread demonstrates, sadly Islamophobia is most definitely rife. These one off incidents that people are talking about which they seem to think makes it okay to vilify an entire religion, I’m sure in a lot of cases without ever having met someone who is Muslim.

Original poster

AdvicePleas · 05/08/2024 05:00

Flibflobflibflob · 02/08/2024 01:20

I think it depends on the definition really and whether thats expanded to other religions. People must be free to criticise and mock religion, it’s a fundamental part of freedom of speech. What I worry about is blasphemy laws through the back door or only one religion having protection from mockery and criticism.

Harm and abuse to an individual person is already covered by hate speech law and other legislation.

I’m an atheist and I’d rather have less protection for religion than more to be frank. I’m asian and can completely understand how it’s a mix of racism and religious prejudice that people face. But I am extremely wary of any law which can be used to make valid criticism an offence.

That’s an interesting think you.

antisemitism has been defined -so people are all clear when it is violated - which must be be frustrating but I wonder if at least it provides a reference for when it is?
valid criticism can always be shown if there is guidelines because it would be when criticism isn’t in breach of the guidelines right?

if you read this post - the criticism is not valid but just an opportunity criticise - this extends in real life in situations as shown in the recent events.

OP posts:

Original poster

AdvicePleas · 05/08/2024 04:55

Namechangedforsensitivity · 04/08/2024 16:51

So named changed as this is controversial but I have direct experience of an incident in school whereby a white British teenager was called haram consistently and had to leave the school, the final straw being incident involving on of the boys and the police having to be involved. So serious stuff.

since we are talking about the subject we are @AdvicePleas what counsel would you give on this to support a positive perception in a situation like this. This girl is seriously traumatised by the experience and the school couldnt say anything other than let the police deal with it. This was about 4/5 years ago I might add

Edited

I have no words - what has that got to with me and my thread?

I’ll leave this again for others to make what they want.. which I’m sure many will find a link between me and your white British teenager .
you have no idea what ethnicity I am btw

OP posts:

Original poster

AdvicePleas · 05/08/2024 04:53

Humdingerydoo · 04/08/2024 21:14

I got through 5 pages and then decided I couldn't read any more of this nonsense. So many hateful anti-Islam and anti-Muslim comments its given me a headache.

Not sure what the right thing to do about a definition is - it hasn't exactly made much of a difference to the Jewish community that there is a definition of antisemitism seeing as people still keep openly being antisemitic on a regular basis.

As a Jewish person with Arab heritage (and name), my family often gets the worst of both worlds 🙃 We receive hate from all sides as people either know/think we're Jewish or think we're Muslim but either way we're apparently to blame for everything that's wrong in the world. So solidarity to any Muslim out there who is currently struggling even more than usual - it's all fucking bullshit and I hope our children are able to be more tolerant and accepting of anyone different to themselves than our generation is.

Thank you for your comments calling this out - it is appreciated.
Especially on a thread quite literally designed to ask how to tackle this - it is very telling isn’t jt?

Do you not think having a clear definition of what antisemitism has helped?

OP posts:

Original poster

AdvicePleas · 05/08/2024 04:48

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What exactly is your question to me ?
you have accepted that Islamophobia exists but you do not want it protected because you don’t believe Muslims deserve that?

did you see the original question on this thread?
why have you come on this thread?
what is your intention - to provide an insightful meaningful dialogue ?

Sorry but why should your religion be protected when women are second class citizens forced into marriage with sometimes men decade's older than themselves .all sorts of other unsavoury things .

this is exactly the reason why there is a working definition is needed and has helped with tackling antisemitism ( whilst obviously the work is not done)

if you choose to isolated yourselves that's where the fear comes from.i am in a minority and don't care who does what but you must admit sometimes you don't help yourselves.

and again grouping all Muslims together and making general sweeping racist anti Islamic comments and perpetuating ideas about the Islamic community in the uk

guess I was unreasonable to ask the question that I did on this thread and not expect this space to filled with anti Islamic rhetoric.

Sad and disappointed.

OP posts:

Fedupmumofadultsons · 04/08/2024 22:16

This was supposed to ge for op .sorry

Fedupmumofadultsons · 04/08/2024 22:14

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PoppyBlack · 04/08/2024 21:57

Gummybear23 · 04/08/2024 12:09

You are vile if you go out and attack individuals because of color and religion

Disguise it how you like.
It is racism.

They are failures of the system.
I am talking of individuals who think it is acceptable to attack and loot.

However I accept they have been manipulated by the system.

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I won't respond much, because I don't think it would do any good. I will say, I agree with you entirely on your first point - absolutely. But name calling and insinuating others are joining in with the mobs ( as you did with some posters upthread), because you disagree with their viewpoints is also plain wrong. Using the language of hate doesn't achieve much and only serves to further polarise communities. We don't need anymore of that I'm sure you'd agree.

Humdingerydoo · 04/08/2024 21:14

I got through 5 pages and then decided I couldn't read any more of this nonsense. So many hateful anti-Islam and anti-Muslim comments its given me a headache.

Not sure what the right thing to do about a definition is - it hasn't exactly made much of a difference to the Jewish community that there is a definition of antisemitism seeing as people still keep openly being antisemitic on a regular basis.

As a Jewish person with Arab heritage (and name), my family often gets the worst of both worlds 🙃 We receive hate from all sides as people either know/think we're Jewish or think we're Muslim but either way we're apparently to blame for everything that's wrong in the world. So solidarity to any Muslim out there who is currently struggling even more than usual - it's all fucking bullshit and I hope our children are able to be more tolerant and accepting of anyone different to themselves than our generation is.

Vanessashanessajenkins2 · 04/08/2024 20:43

Sdpbody · 02/08/2024 08:54

I do believe all face/head coverings should be banned in the UK.

It also bothers me to see women and their daughters in full black swim wear that they must be boiling in, when their husbands and sons are there in a pair of shorts.

That is something I am strongly against.

I was born here, went to Pakistan a few times when I was younger. Tried to wear a hijab in my teens but not for me. My dad wasnt bothered. Nor were my family. They just wanted me to be safe and settled. I'm a solicitor. My husband is white and British born. I live in a northern city where there is a very diverse population. I've never had any issues personally with racism until very recently.

I wear a full swimming costume when swimming with my family. I don't need your sympathy thanks, I just don't feel comfortable in a bikini or even a one piece. It's my choice but just because it doesn't fit with what you think is free, why do I need to explain myself over and over. And why is what I and lots of other muslim women choose to wear when swimming, such a huge issue to people who want muslim women to be what is their definition of 'free'.

Look beyond this please. I am a muslim woman. I have a good job. I'm married to someone I fell in love with. I raise my family how I want to. My son has mixed heritage of which I am very proud. My family have never held me back. To me these things represent my freedom, not what I wear when I'm swimming.

And to the poster that said muslim women don't integrate, I'm sure many do. I go to socials at work all the time. I don't drink but I will go to a pub and have a good time with my friends. I don't go to clubs so would not attend those socials. But it's not my activity of choice. Why does going out drinking have to be the only activity of choice and if we don't participate, we are not integrating? I think people like that poster, don't think you are happy until you like what they like and do what they do.

3CustardCreams · 04/08/2024 19:16

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I also worked with a lovely girl in hospital - she was a pharmacist and we bonded over being young girls in our 20s working in the NHS. She had beautiful long hair and we’d like to chat about fashion, beauty and greys anatomy. After about a year she started wearing a hijab due to pressure from her family. It seemed so at odds to the girl I knew before when we’d chat about hair products and balayage etc. I don’t like that she felt forced to wear the hijab and became a much more subdued version of herself. I know that she would not choose to wear it despite some women saying they want to.

SallyWD · 04/08/2024 17:15

GalacticalFarce · 04/08/2024 16:33

This thread is crazy.
Labelling areas with high percentage of Muslims as shitholes, making out that women are forced to wear hijabs.
Have you ever been to some predominantly white areas that are also "shitholes" because there are plenty. Some estates are pretty grim.
Have you seen educated and elegant women in hijabs? Lots of wealthy, educated and professional women wear the hijab all over the world.
I don't agree with it myself (just the same as I don't agree with clothes that are too exposing) but everyone is free to wear what they want.
It's awful how Muslims seem to be blamed for everything and I do feel there's an agenda at play. I've seen so many unsubstantiated (likely fake) stories on Twitter just over that last few days where apparently Muslims are beheading people, beating people up, murdering people.
Also they want to take over the country too. Which is laughable. Even if there's some truth in that, how could a small percentage of a small percentage of the population achieve this?
People have lost their minds.

Yes exactly. A lot of these"shit holes" are simply very poor areas. I live in a middle class area has lots lots of well off Muslim doctors, lawyers etc. No one could describe this area as a shit hole.
I grew up in a very white area that also had purely white shit holes - no go areas, full of drugs and crime.
Why anyone would say an area is a shit hole simply because Muslims live there, is beyond me. It's ugly racism, nothing more.
As for Muslims wanting to take over the country - what bollocks. The Muslims I know want to live a quiet life, raising their families. They do a lot for the community and helping others (e.g. Working at homeless shelters every weekend, giving their birthday money to charity arranging community events to raise money for charities). However none of this is ever reported. Only negative stuff that is either untrue or grossly exaggerated.

Usercyzabc · 04/08/2024 17:05

GalacticalFarce · 04/08/2024 16:33

This thread is crazy.
Labelling areas with high percentage of Muslims as shitholes, making out that women are forced to wear hijabs.
Have you ever been to some predominantly white areas that are also "shitholes" because there are plenty. Some estates are pretty grim.
Have you seen educated and elegant women in hijabs? Lots of wealthy, educated and professional women wear the hijab all over the world.
I don't agree with it myself (just the same as I don't agree with clothes that are too exposing) but everyone is free to wear what they want.
It's awful how Muslims seem to be blamed for everything and I do feel there's an agenda at play. I've seen so many unsubstantiated (likely fake) stories on Twitter just over that last few days where apparently Muslims are beheading people, beating people up, murdering people.
Also they want to take over the country too. Which is laughable. Even if there's some truth in that, how could a small percentage of a small percentage of the population achieve this?
People have lost their minds.

Yes, I agree it’s down to deprivation, not culture. These recent conversation have been utterly utterly depressing in my view. I also feel the UK is deliberately being divided.

Usercyzabc · 04/08/2024 17:02

So what do we do

Namechangedforsensitivity · 04/08/2024 16:51

So named changed as this is controversial but I have direct experience of an incident in school whereby a white British teenager was called haram consistently and had to leave the school, the final straw being incident involving on of the boys and the police having to be involved. So serious stuff.

since we are talking about the subject we are @AdvicePleas what counsel would you give on this to support a positive perception in a situation like this. This girl is seriously traumatised by the experience and the school couldnt say anything other than let the police deal with it. This was about 4/5 years ago I might add

Gummybear23 · 04/08/2024 16:47

This reply has been deleted

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So one controlling husband warrants stereotyping a whole faith?

GalacticalFarce · 04/08/2024 16:33

This thread is crazy.
Labelling areas with high percentage of Muslims as shitholes, making out that women are forced to wear hijabs.
Have you ever been to some predominantly white areas that are also "shitholes" because there are plenty. Some estates are pretty grim.
Have you seen educated and elegant women in hijabs? Lots of wealthy, educated and professional women wear the hijab all over the world.
I don't agree with it myself (just the same as I don't agree with clothes that are too exposing) but everyone is free to wear what they want.
It's awful how Muslims seem to be blamed for everything and I do feel there's an agenda at play. I've seen so many unsubstantiated (likely fake) stories on Twitter just over that last few days where apparently Muslims are beheading people, beating people up, murdering people.
Also they want to take over the country too. Which is laughable. Even if there's some truth in that, how could a small percentage of a small percentage of the population achieve this?
People have lost their minds.