Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

[Bearsinmotion]

Why are sports sex-segregated?

[ASugarr]

@Bearsinmotion

Why are sports sex-segregated?

To be fair that's a good question. I don't see the need for it with most sports.

[AnyOldPrion]

I don't see the need for it with most sports.*

In which sports do you see a need for it?

[ASugarr]

@AnyOldPrion

I don't see the need for it with most sports.*

In which sports do you see a need for it?

There's quite a few personally I think we shouldn't be separated for. But regardless, that's not the point of the post. The point is doing genital inspections is child sexual abuse.

[AnyOldPrion]

You made more than one point and this one is worth discussing:

”Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.”

You indicated that you believed some sports should be sex segregated and I am interested to know which sports and why.

I can’t see your article as you directed it through Twitter, which I’m logged out of.

Presumably sports have been sex segregated up until very recently anyway. What was the policy previously? Have you objected before?

[ASugarr]

@AnyOldPrion

You made more than one point and this one is worth discussing:

”Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.”

You indicated that you believed some sports should be sex segregated and I am interested to know which sports and why.

I can’t see your article as you directed it through Twitter, which I’m logged out of.

Presumably sports have been sex segregated up until very recently anyway. What was the policy previously? Have you objected before?

Okay. I stand by my statement.

Here is the link to the article itself: nowthisnews.com/news/florida-anti-trans-bill-could-require-genital-inspections-of-students

[AnyOldPrion]

Okay. I stand by my statement.

Which one?

That sports should not be segregated by sex?

Or that physical checks are an unreasonable method for assessing whether boys are cheating by placing themselves in the female category?

[ASugarr]

@AnyOldPrion

Okay. I stand by my statement.

Which one?

That sports should not be segregated by sex?

Or that physical checks are an unreasonable method for assessing whether boys are cheating by placing themselves in the female category?

That trans women should be in women's sports and trans men should be in men's sports. Not anything to do with the inspections. It's clearly child abuse.

[AnyOldPrion]

And thanks for the link. I can now see that you were being minimal with the truth. What is asked for is a doctor’s note of proof of sex, which can be based on various different parameters:

”The bill would also allow the school or another party to “dispute” a student’s gender, which would then require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.”

Not sure how this is child abuse. Presumably anywhere sports are segregated by sex, there has to be some kind of check if a person of any age is suspected of cheating. This doesn’t seem an unreasonable rule.

[Theunamedcat]

Surely the original birth certificate is evidence? As its based on observation of genitals?

[ASugarr]

@AnyOldPrion

And thanks for the link. I can now see that you were being minimal with the truth. What is asked for is a doctor’s note of proof of sex, which can be based on various different parameters:

”The bill would also allow the school or another party to “dispute” a student’s gender, which would then require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.”

Not sure how this is child abuse. Presumably anywhere sports are segregated by sex, there has to be some kind of check if a person of any age is suspected of cheating. This doesn’t seem an unreasonable rule.

The genital examinations are child sexual abuse.

[ASugarr]

@Theunamedcat

Surely the original birth certificate is evidence? As its based on observation of genitals?

I don't know what the law is surrounding that in the USA.

[ChristinaYang10]

It says it may “require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.“
Whether or not that’s ok is a different argument, but (and maybe I read it wrong) it sounds to me like proof can be requested, and then the student can provide it in one of these three ways. Rather than that a physical exam can be insisted on (and certainly not, as the Twitter discussion seems to think, that anyone can insist on personally examining the student’s genitals).
As I said, requiring students to provide proof at all is a separate discussion, but it doesn’t sound to me like anyone would be required to undergo a genital examination, thankfully.

[ASugarr]

@ChristinaYang10

It says it may “require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.“
Whether or not that’s ok is a different argument, but (and maybe I read it wrong) it sounds to me like proof can be requested, and then the student can provide it in one of these three ways. Rather than that a physical exam can be insisted on (and certainly not, as the Twitter discussion seems to think, that anyone can insist on personally examining the student’s genitals).
As I said, requiring students to provide proof at all is a separate discussion, but it doesn’t sound to me like anyone would be required to undergo a genital examination, thankfully.

A physical exam is the part where they would have to undergo a genital examination which is disgusting.

[justawoman]

So they can have a genetic test or test for testosterone instead. No genital exam needed.

[AnyOldPrion]

I thought that too, unamed. Presumably in the vast majority of cases it will be unequivocal because there will be a record of the child’s sex recorded within, for example the education system. I presume that information is recorded and documented when a child starts school.

If sports are sex segregated, which the vast majority of people feel is appropriate due to the significant sporting advantage male people have, then I guess in the vast majority of cases there won’t be any doubt.

There have always been cheats however, and presumably this rule requiring a doctor’s examination only kicks in when all normal means for checking have failed to come up with a verifiable result.

[ASugarr]

Quote from the article: "One of the bill’s opponents, Rep. Omari Hardy (D), said it would subject kids to “genital inspections.”

[ChristinaYang10]

A physical exam is the part where they would have to undergo a genital examination which is disgusting.

I didn’t disagree with that. I was saying that I don’t think the physical exam would be mandatory. Just one of three options of proof the student could provide from a HCP, and it was “just” the proof that could be required, not the specific method/examination. That’s how I read it.

[ASugarr]

@ChristinaYang10

A physical exam is the part where they would have to undergo a genital examination which is disgusting.

I didn’t disagree with that. I was saying that I don’t think the physical exam would be mandatory. Just one of three options of proof the student could provide from a HCP, and it was “just” the proof that could be required, not the specific method/examination. That’s how I read it.

No child should have to show proof to play in a sports activity. Do you carry your birth certificate with you? Because what will most likely happen is any child/person who is accused of doing well at the sport and maybe not looking as feminine would be subjected to this. And that's not okay.

[ChristinaYang10]

No child should have to show proof to play in a sports activity. Do you carry your birth certificate with you? Because what will most likely happen is any child/person who is accused of doing well at the sport and maybe not looking as feminine would be subjected to this. And that's not okay.

I didn’t say it was okay, I said that the general point around requiring proof was a separate discussion. You started the thread specifically about children being required to undergo a genital examination. I was just saying I didn’t think that was the case, because I agree with you that it shouldn’t be. I didn’t say the law was therefore totally fine, no problems whatsoever.

[SherryPalmer]

Surely there are already these criteria in place for age-related categories? Usually involving providing a birth certificate?

[ASugarr]

@ChristinaYang10

No child should have to show proof to play in a sports activity. Do you carry your birth certificate with you? Because what will most likely happen is any child/person who is accused of doing well at the sport and maybe not looking as feminine would be subjected to this. And that's not okay.

I didn’t say it was okay, I said that the general point around requiring proof was a separate discussion. You started the thread specifically about children being required to undergo a genital examination. I was just saying I didn’t think that was the case, because I agree with you that it shouldn’t be. I didn’t say the law was therefore totally fine, no problems whatsoever.

That's okay. My comment wasn't meant to be in a disapproving tone so my apologies if it came across that way.

[AnyOldPrion]

@ASugarr

Quote from the article: "One of the bill’s opponents, Rep. Omari Hardy (D), said it would subject kids to “genital inspections.”

So you are reading and showing the quotation from someone who is trying to whip up offence and not the actual statement held about the policy:

”The bill would also allow the school or another party to “dispute” a student’s gender, which would then require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.”

Why don’t we discuss the actual policy instead. If sports are sex segregated, what is a reasonable way to assess whether someone is cheating? This method seems reasonable to me.

[ASugarr]

And reading what is said below "One of the bill’s opponents, Rep. Omari Hardy (D), said it would subject kids to “genital inspections.”". It is not reasonable.

[IHateCoronavirus]

In organised sporting events/clubs etc there will be a registration process, that is where the declaration of biological sex would be made. It wouldn’t be a case of needing to carry documentation everywhere.

We did a staff training day once where one of the facts they told us was the average adult female has the hand strength of the average 12 year old boy. It stood out to me at the time because DS2 was 12 and DS1 was 13.

At 12 both my boys, and most of their friends were only just beginning to head towards puberty, and yet despite being underdeveloped their strength was already they of an average female.

In which way do you propose to keep sport fair as safe for biological females when playing with/against much biologically stronger trans women?