Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

Because this seems to be the only section where a discussion on trans rights issues take place.

Isn’t there a section on LGBT children? Didn’t you suggest someone else’s post belonged there only yesterday?

This is a section for feminism and women’s rights, hence the reason we have addressed the anti-feminist arguments you have put forward.

Women’s discomfort about having to prove their sex to compete where men have no such requirement has long been a feminist issue, but it is generally considered a necessary evil.

If we segregate sport by sex, then there have to be some mechanism by which we can tell who should be excluded. This ruling, which requires a doctor’s certificate and allows several different testing methods does not seem particularly unreasonable and presumably has been in place to avoid the problem of cheating for many years and thus has nothing to do with transgender rights.

Tell me, were all these objections made when it was simply about sex segregation? Presumably the rules were exactly the same then.

@Creepygnochi

I've never known a sport to do blood tests, no. More expensive and time consuming, I assume, and most sporting unions are cheapskates.

Ok thanks. And yes, money always wins out!

Well said Flywheel

Dr Emma Hilton (Developmental biologist) debunks the study by Joanna Harper which was the main basis for IOC changing the rules for female sport and provides evidence based background:

WPUK and FP4W London:
'A Woman's Place is on the Podium: Emma Hilton' (10 July 2019)

If it's not for a medical reason then no. But many people need hormones therapy for various reasons (not just transgender people) and it isn't fair to completely exclude them.

Why isn't it fair to exclude them? Why is it fair to allow someone taking a performance enhancing drug for whatever reason to compete against those who aren't? Surely to be fair all competitors should be allowed to take them?

People get excluded for medical therapies all the time. Hell, Duretics are now a banned substance under the World anti doping angency.

@ASugarr

It seems this has become more about transgender people in sports rather than the main subject matter which was subjecting children to genital examinations. So I'll leave you all to continue the sports debate if you wish. However I will only be replying to comments specifically on the subject of the bill.

I think maybe you have misled people about the Bill that was passed and people are correctly discussing the reason behind it while correcting you sensationalised take.

We have also provided the latest studies that show why sex segregation is needed. ‘Comfort’ and ‘mental health’ is a two way street. Why should a female suffer harm (physical or mental) to losing out their future opportunities to someone with an unfair advantage.

It is correctly analogous to point out that an adult should not be allowed to compete against children in most cases (unless it is a mixed age event). Nor should able people be able to compete in disabled event.

The bill would also allow the school or another party to “dispute” a student’s gender, which would then require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.”

Interpreting this as requiring genital exams on trans children is one hell of a reach, especially when it is set out clearly that a physical exam isn't mandatory and there are alternatives.
Sports, especially at higher levels, have physical tests all the time e.g. for doping. It's not unusual at all.
I saw all the usual suspects whipping up hysteria over 'genital exams' over on twitter yesterday, but this is the first time I've seen exactly what was written in the bill. Surprise surprise it says nothing of the sort.

@BlueLipstickRocks

The point about using the birth certificate is the "genital inspection" has already been done and its a widely accepted proof of a child's age

Not necessarily.

In Ireland and Canada I believe you can self identify a change of sex on birth certificate.
In the UK it can also be changed through the courts via a GRC which instructs the Registrar Office to reissue a birth certificate in an amended sex.

A reissued birth certificate is identical to the original and shows no indication of natal sex.

I thought you had to be over 18 for a GRC.

Ah! that original Harper study: men in their 40s have reduced physical abilities compared with when they were in their 20s and training at a high level in their sport. It must be down to identifying as a women.

I think as long as there is a history of being a transgender man or woman (not in medical procedures but through discussion with their doctor and all) then that's all that is required.

Such a doctor would then be able to confirm sex. By definition a child identified as 'transgender' would be seeking treatment from that doctor in order to be treated as if they are the opposite sex.

The sexes should be separate. This nonsense wouldn’t occur if people just didn’t purport that boys are really girls and should race against girls so perhaps a bit of common sense all round could have avoided this.

I thought you had to be over 18 for a GRC.

Not in every country and this is something slowly changing.
Since 2019 for example Canada allows minors to petition the court (form NC500) to change legal sex.
Moving forward I don't see using Birth Certificate as a reliable option.

It's ok to change your mind once you've realised things like 'physical exam' might mean cheek swab, no one is entitled to play elite level sports, dance, cheer and tiddlywinks are not Olympic level professional sports and that testosterone is one of many performance enhancing drugs that is banned for professional sports. These things aren't based in hate, but a desire for fairness. You don't have to double down.

@ASugarr

And reading what is said below "One of the bill’s opponents, Rep. Omari Hardy (D), said it would subject kids to “genital inspections.”". It is not reasonable.

Someone opposed to a bill said something that wasn't true about it?

Gosh.

Has the OP flounced?

This thread should have ended at "croquet".

I'll add some more examples of competitive sports with no gender disadvantage:

Reading
Jigsaw puzzles
Afternoon tea assembling
Cat patting
Nipping to the shops

I have medals in all of these.

🦡💨

@Tibtom

Ah! that original Harper study: men in their 40s have reduced physical abilities compared with when they were in their 20s and training at a high level in their sport. It must be down to identifying as a women.

There was one participant in that study who got faster after transition. Their results were removed from the final analysis. Not to mention the total lack of controls, the fact that half the data couldn't be verified etc. Emma Hilton is spot on in her analysis linked to above.

October 2020
"World Rugby has approved updated transgender participation guidelines following a comprehensive, collaborative and transparent review of its existing guidance.

The new guidelines cover the participation of transgender athletes in men’s and women’s contact rugby where it is possible to do so safely and fairly.

As with many other sports, the physiological differences between males and females necessitate dedicated men’s and women’s contact rugby categories for safety and performance reasons. Given the best available evidence for the effects of testosterone reduction on these physical attributes for transgender women, it was concluded that safety and fairness cannot presently be assured for women competing against transwomen in contact rugby. " (continues)

Agreement of the guidelines completes a comprehensive and inclusive process chaired by Dr Araba Chintoh that set out to understand whether it was possible to balance inclusivity with safety and fairness in light of growing evidence that the testosterone suppression required by previous transgender regulations does not significantly impact muscle mass, strength or power.

World Rugby undertook three phases of review:

A ground-breaking workshop that brought together a cross-section of experts for the first time with the objective of understanding the medical, physiological, psychological, risk, socio-ethical and sporting environment. This included transgender community representatives, players, medical, research and rugby experts

A comprehensive review of the workshop outcomes and learnings to inform the development of guidelines that consider inclusivity in the context of ensuring player safety is not compromised

A comprehensive and inclusive process of consultation with advocacy groups, player representatives and unions

As a result of this process and based on the available evidence, it was concluded that a balance between safety, fairness and inclusion could not be provided for transwomen playing women’s contact rugby. " (continues)
www.world.rugby/news/591776/world-rugby-approves-updated-transgender-participation-guidelines

Sources: Joanna Harper's study on 8 transgender athletes: pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1e6a

Not sure you have actually read this study properly. It is not robust at all in its methodology, no control group and self reported results as two examples.

Even with an optimistic point of view that the formula run over the results to supposedly modify for age, the fact that this study involved such a huge time difference between results in my book makes it meaningless. When so many years are involved, there are so many descrepancies to account for the differences. Such as training regimens, overall health, and what Harper has been known to point out before, deliberate modifications to training and diet to create a body shape that is desired. (Harper stated this in an article separately)

So, why should people deliberately choosing to modify their training and diet to be less muscular etc be allowed to compete with females?

The Hilton review also pointed out one study where it seems with training the reduction of testosterone effects can be reversed and people can even improve on pre-transition results.

Please share how this is ‘fair’. An under 16 sports participant who is male and going through a male puberty should not be included in female sports regardless of whether they have started cross sex hormones (if that is even legal in their country).

@LastRoloIsMine

Has the OP flounced?

Unlikely. OP is not generally a flouncer, prefering instead to simply ignore all arguments, fact, etc that prove their position is incorrect or disengenous. However if can be a useful exercise to debunk TRA lies for lurkers on the thread.

@LastRoloIsMine

Has the OP flounced?

Unlikely. I'm sure op joined mn, promised they weren't here to take screenshots for twitter. Took screenshots for twitter and said they were leaving. Only they're still here. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

If genital checks are degrading, how is it ok for pubescent boys to be mixing with pubescent girls in changing rooms and showers?

I agree that both are degrading.

I disagree with the genital observation but I don’t agree that sports should be mixed

Trans women and men are stronger than women and transmen even if they have lower testosterone levels

I mean, a woman had her skull fractured by a transwoman who enjoyed doing it.

Transwoman are taller than women so in things like basketball they have an advantage.

If a trans man was to do rugby, there’s a higher chance they could get severely hurt being tackled. Just more than a man would purely because they would be smaller and not as strong

@WarriorN

If genital checks are degrading, how is it ok for pubescent boys to be mixing with pubescent girls in changing rooms and showers?

I agree that both are degrading.

Because the boys want to to change with the girls and their feelings matter above all else silly. Surely you know that by now?