Genital Inspections

[ASugarr]

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.
t.co/CMRxJnHgV2

This is child sexual abuse. I hope this never ends up happening in the UK. Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

A cheek swab would be catorgarised as a physical examination.

Yes. If they made it clear that a genital inspection wasn't able to be done then I wouldn't feel as strongly against it

Ok so given that there are 3 options of determining sex why do you think anyone would choose genital inspection?
If you prove your sex in either of the other 2 ways no inspection needed.

I dont see it as a forced genital inspection its simply an option. Its giving people a choice.

Although I still believe trans men and women shouldn't be forced to play in teams they don't feel comfortable in

But its ok to make women (as in the biological ones who were born with vaginas) to play on teams they don't feel comfortable in? Basically women have to put up and shut up? Right. Gotcha. As long as that's clear.

@ASugarr if you're genuine concern is in regards genital examinations of children (of either sex) then why have you posted this in feminism?

But its ok to make women (as in the biological ones who were born with vaginas) to play on teams they don't feel comfortable in?

oh yes, in ops world women just have to go along with anything other people decide for them. do women actually have wants and needs of their own?

Also no one can be forced to compete in sport. To this day I have never been forced to compete in anything. They can choose to compete or choose not to compete. Why should women’s safety and well-being be put at risk due to ‘feelings’. Don’t like it, don’t compete. Simples.

But forced geneital inspections are pretty much already done universally through drug testing. You need to pee in front of the medical official, they need to see the urine leave your body. That's the reality of elite sports (or at least those affilated with the Olympic federation). If you don't like it, don't play.

I tell a lie, I had to do 1500m in yr9 sports day. I didn’t win.

Although I still believe trans men and women shouldn't be forced to play in teams they don't feel comfortable in By extension you then believe that the feelings of a very small minority supersede the feelings and rights of natal women.

Can you read what you wrote and honestly think that it makes sense? That women should give way to men for no other reason than to ensure that men "feel comfortable"? That women should put their wishes and needs aside because men will expect it? If you truly believe that then you need to grow up and acknowledge reality.

[quote FrangipaniBlue]@ASugarr if you're genuine concern is in regards genital examinations of children (of either sex) then why have you posted this in feminism?[/quote]
Because this seems to be the only section where a discussion on trans rights issues take place.

OP do youthink doping with testosterone should be allowed in sport? If not why not?

@Helmetbymidnight

It seems this has become more about transgender people in sports

it was always about you insisting that males can compete in womens sports if they fancy.

I also support trans men in men's sports just to add.

To be fair that's only because if you post elsewhere we are told to take it to the FWR boards.

Today 06:45 ASugarr
"I think as long as there is a history of being a transgender man or woman (not in medical procedures but through discussion with their doctor and all) then that's all that is required. I've seen, for some sports I can see the concern however I don't think this should be a rule for all sports."

What do you mean by 'the' concern, what is concerning? In which sports, specifically can you see this concern?

@Creepygnochi

But forced geneital inspections are pretty much already done universally through drug testing. You need to pee in front of the medical official, they need to see the urine leave your body. That's the reality of elite sports (or at least those affilated with the Olympic federation). If you don't like it, don't play.

That's interesting. Is it the only way? Would a blood test work?

@Tibtom

OP do youthink doping with testosterone should be allowed in sport? If not why not?

If it's not for a medical reason then no. But many people need hormones therapy for various reasons (not just transgender people) and it isn't fair to completely exclude them.

@AnyOldPrion

And thanks for the link. I can now see that you were being minimal with the truth. What is asked for is a doctor’s note of proof of sex, which can be based on various different parameters:

”The bill would also allow the school or another party to “dispute” a student’s gender, which would then require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.”

Not sure how this is child abuse. Presumably anywhere sports are segregated by sex, there has to be some kind of check if a person of any age is suspected of cheating. This doesn’t seem an unreasonable rule.

This post is worth repeating because it illustrates that the opening post is incorrect. There is no requirement for a genital inspection.

I've never known a sport to do blood tests, no. More expensive and time consuming, I assume, and most sporting unions are cheapskates.

Trans girls and women deserve to play in women's sports. Trans boys and men deserve to play in men's sports. Period.

I could not disagree more with the original post and I say that as a post op transsexual.

Enforcing single sex policy in sports needs ways of screening to ensure compliance. Professional athletes are regularly screened and I see no issue in testing at other levels. I very much doubt "genital inspections" is the default position.

I wonder what the OPs definition is of "transwomen"? You cannot ignore physical advantages. This reduces under feminising hormones and I have first hand experience of this but even then there are some advantages that cannot be reversed.

Here are some links to actual studies that everyone may be interested in. Peer reviewed and, for those who think it is important, Harper is a transwoman. So, a transwoman’s study corroborates a previously (by a few months) published study. The facts are indisputable really. A US military study has also independently supported the same findings as Hilton and Lundberg.

Hilton and Lundberg have also included links to an Australian study of children. That study found that even BEFORE puberty males have physical advantages over females.

I think there is a Greek study that supports the Australian study too linked there.

Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage by Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

And

How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation Joanna Harper1, Emma O'Donnell1, Behzad Sorouri Khorashad2, Hilary McDermott1

bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

Hope this helps.

Should an 18 year old be allowed to take part in sporting competitions for those aged 12-13?

How would sports clubs and schools confirm the age of children wishing to compete?

Sports are age based as well as sex based to ensure fairness as well as safety of other competitors.

@ASugarr

Here are some resources to check out on Trans men and women in sports: Sources: Joanna Harper's study on 8 transgender athletes: pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1e6a Berman et. al: academic.oup.com/jcem/article Joanna Harper on Trans Athletes: www.kinesophy.com/joanna-harp Joanna Harper, The Jim Jefferies Show: USA Powerlifting on Transgender Athletes: www.usapowerlifting.com/trans

Joanna Harper's earlier research suffered from serious methodological flaws, but luckily more up to date and much higher quality research is now available such as this study by Wiik et al academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/105/3/e805/5651219

The recent review by Hilton and Lundberg is also excellent www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7846503/

Joanna Harper and collegues have also just published this paper bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/02/28/bjsports-2020-103106

All these papers, including the recent work by Harper, are in agreement that even with testosterone suppression to well below the level currently required to compete in female categories, transwomen retain an unfair advantage. World Rugby have taken the latest research on board and come up with a policy that promotes fairness and safety for women in a sport where they are still under-represented. Evidence should be the basis of these policies, not just listening to the person with the loudest voice or the most emotive tale to tell.

This post is worth repeating because it illustrates that the opening post is incorrect. There is no requirement for a genital inspection.

All those (OP) who say that this will lead to genital inspections are only saying this false statement as alarmist distraction tactics because they have nothing else to back up the fact that males in female sports is wrong - and not just for the usual contact sports - but pretty much all sports - males have an advantage. Golf is an good example: height, arm length, hand size, body muscle %.

I think everyone is in agreement that the idea of forced genital inspections is appalling, but seeing as that is not what the bill is proposing, I think we can move on from that.
OP, I think it is fantastic that you have identified sports and hobbies that are safe for mixed sex participation. Wouldn't it be wonderful if some trans groups encouraged and promoted these hobbies as a way for trans youth to participate in sport.
Unfortunately mixed sex contact sport will be impossible from a safety point of view. I really don't see any way around this.
Of course there are lots of other non contact sports trans people can participate in for fun and exercise. Unfortunately at a competitive level, this won't be possible from a fairness point of view.

The point about using the birth certificate is the "genital inspection" has already been done and its a widely accepted proof of a child's age

Not necessarily.

In Ireland and Canada I believe you can self identify a change of sex on birth certificate.
In the UK it can also be changed through the courts via a GRC which instructs the Registrar Office to reissue a birth certificate in an amended sex.

A reissued birth certificate is identical to the original and shows no indication of natal sex.