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Are we the baddies?

(455 Posts)
DJLippy Mon 09-Jul-18 18:27:24

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

Are we the baddies?

Are Terf's as bad as everybody seems to say?

Are we on the wrong side of history?

Anyone ever stop to ask themselves this or is it just me?

Floorplan Mon 09-Jul-18 18:29:20

I think about it deeply at least once a day. I've never concluded "Yes".
So I go on.

Writersblock2 Mon 09-Jul-18 18:31:56

You’d be a fool if you didn’t regularly check in with yourself to see if you’re doing the right thing. As above, the answer is always the same so far: we are right.

DJLippy Mon 09-Jul-18 18:32:02

What makes you think you might be wrong?

MephistophelesApprentice Mon 09-Jul-18 18:32:42

Canute was the enemy of the tide.

BettyDuMonde Mon 09-Jul-18 18:33:56

If you’ve spent your whole life sticking up for others (as many left-leaning women have) it’s pretty soul destroying to finally stand up for yourself and find yourself being branded a bigot!

However, I’ve not been on the wrong side yet - and actually, I don’t think we need to have ‘sides’ just legal clarification on sex v gender and laws that allow for same sex services AND protect those who display atypical gender expression (and take proper care of those with medically diagnosed dysphoria).

Floorplan Mon 09-Jul-18 18:35:27

doi.org/10.1080/00332925.2017.1350804

I read a lot of articles too, like this one.

LangCleg Mon 09-Jul-18 18:36:57

Not wrong. And my not wrongness becomes more not wrong with every passing day.

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg Mon 09-Jul-18 18:39:22

Yes, I think about this.

But I just keep coming back to the sheer dishonesty of re-defining a word away from the people it describes, even though there have been specific laws put in place, using that word, to support the people who that word used to describe because of physical realities which will never apply to the people who have co-opted the word.

And from there, I look into history, and every time this happens, women lose out. We all know that as soon as it's 'people' breastfeeding, not 'women' the argument will come that breastfeeding is choice any 'person' can make, so it's not discriminatory to withdraw facilities for breastfeeding women.

DJLippy Mon 09-Jul-18 18:41:40

Isn't pregnancy a protected characteristic in the EA 2010 under UK law though?

Baroquehavoc Mon 09-Jul-18 18:43:05

TRA have made it about sides. They have decided that feminism is anti trans.

I've always be passionate about the liberation of women and girls. Until women and girls are safe, we need sex segregation.

The demands of transpeople doesn't stop that.

OlennasWimple Mon 09-Jul-18 18:45:35

Yes, I think about this quite a bit.

But I've decided that the right side of history is never the one that dismantles safeguarding practices and protections, that experiments with drugs on children and vulnerable people, or that preaches medical interventions that leave people permanently sterilised and without proper sexual function

SarahAr Mon 09-Jul-18 18:48:17

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg - presumably you are talking about redefining marriage to include gay people?

DJLippy Mon 09-Jul-18 18:50:04

False equivalency SarahAr.

Marriage is not a person. Women are people.

littlbrowndog Mon 09-Jul-18 18:50:21

The sadness in that piece floorplan th3 utter sadness.

Ta for sharing it I read it and was just like how can this be happening to our kids.

This is the disgrace. Not lesbians. Marching

pombear Mon 09-Jul-18 18:56:22

I suspect many of us here, like you DJLippy (loved your twitter, loved your playlist!) are people who've campaigned on various issues over the years for those who are oppressed, marginalised, unheard.

So when this issue raised its head, I reflected, read around it, realised I was struggling with cognitive dissonance to do with my natural bias to support minority/oppressed issues, and then realised that this wasn't that.

That this was a full-on onslaught onto women's rights, against feminism, anti-women.

I woke up.

And yet, like any person who wants to ensure equality, fairness, support for minorities, I still check in with myself - and still realise, no, not with the 'baddies'. I'm with the women's rights, not 'anti-trans', but with women's rights.

R0wantrees Mon 09-Jul-18 18:56:57

current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo

Icantreachthepretzels Mon 09-Jul-18 18:59:34

The thing is ... this is a thread with the Op thinking about their position - taking the time to wonder if they are in the wrong - actually worrying about it, and asking others if they do the same. Most people have replied, yes - they have given that possibility quite a lot of deep thought.

My question to you is: Do you think TRAs ever stop and ask 'are we the baddies?'

There is female socialisation all over this thread! Women are having their rights and protections removed, they are being called the most dreadful names and getting death and rape threats over the internet. Some women have suffered doxxing, and physical violence and interviews with the police for perfectly legal things they have said. Women have been forced out of political parties for their belief. They have had their own meetings disrupted, and cancelled and had bomb threats. And yet it is women stopping to check if it is their position that is the wrong one.
I assure you the lady dicks are not doing likewise.

R0wantrees Mon 09-Jul-18 19:04:06

Worth a visit to the #ManFriday Art Exhibition

after the exhibits
#ManFriday Comment:
"I have more but I think that’s enough for you to get the gist. Are you as sickened, as scared, as angry, as I am?

The women and transwomen being attacked by these male ‘trans rights activists’ have rather different weapons of choice:

Public debates open to all
Swimming trunks and a ridiculous hat
T-shirts, badges and leaflets
Silly cartoons
A crowd-funded legal challenge to a political party breaking the law
Meetings with our MPs
Media interviews
Discussion on a public forum
A petition on the government website
The not-remotely funny thing is, it is these women and transwomen who are being removed from office, interviewed under police caution, verbally abused, threatened, intimidated, shoved, beaten and surrounded by baying mobs of these terrifying TRAs. This is not a few crazies sounding off on Twitter. This is real.

To our politicians: will you speak up now against this avalanche of violent misogyny? If not, why not?

To transpeople: there is a balance of rights to be found that both protects women and girls and enables people suffering from gender dysphoria to participate in a full social life. Women always have been and can always be your staunchest allies, but there are people among you who are playing divide and conquer. Loudly. They don’t care about you. They want to erase your identity as well as ours in their narcissistic rampage of male violence and self-entitlement. Let’s talk.

To everyone horrified and disgusted by these pictures: please, sign the petition: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118 "

RatRolyPoly Mon 09-Jul-18 19:10:07

FWIW it's worth I don't think anyone is a de facto "baddie" simply for being on one or other side of the debate.

I do however think that there are people on both sides who have strayed too far from their virtuous intent and found themselves, whether knowingly or unknowingly, the baddies in this whole thing.

I think it's better not to check which "side" you're on for righteousness, but instead to check your own personal principles, your lines of decency, and whether you yourself have found yourself crossing those lines. Because no matter how worthy the cause, evil is as evil does 99.9% of the time.

enoughisenough12 Mon 09-Jul-18 19:16:44

A really important thread. It's right to question both our instinctive reactions and the positions that we hold. I have done this and I do see vulnerability on both sides. BUT, when I see the aggression, the threats and - most importantly to me - what is happening to children at the hands of this cult, my resolve is strengthened. I know this is right and that strengthens my resolve to carry on challenging and highlighting the real harm being done.

Thatjourno Mon 09-Jul-18 19:26:03

If your asking yourself if your the baddies then chances are yes... Yes you are.

Pratchet Mon 09-Jul-18 19:30:02

No DJ. We are right. I never think we are wrong. I sometimes think how relaxing it would be to stop fighting and let it all wash over me. But I have to make up for lost time.

Lancelottie Mon 09-Jul-18 19:30:06

I don't think that's true, actually, Thatjourno. It's pretty rare for abusers, for instance, to agonise about whether they're the ones in the wrong.

DJLippy Mon 09-Jul-18 19:30:40

If your asking yourself if your the baddies then chances are no.. no you aren't.

I don't think the Nazi's ever questioned this. I don't think the crusaders ever did. Questioning the morality of your actions doesn't mean you're wrong. NOT questioning your actions mean's you're probably wrong.

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