Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

Thank you for responding to people Justine. I wasn't about yesterday and so I missed the thread and issues. I have since read it and felt the modding was heavy-handed to say the least.

I do have one issue with what you have said:

Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

Ok - there is a certain type of thread on Mumsnet which upsets me, causes me anxiety and can affect me for days after (I'm not saying what they are as I'd rather not give ammunition to anyone). I spy these threads and I hide them OR I don't open them. I do not go and cry to MNHQ about them despite the fact I really do feel bad even to see titles of some. My solution is not to get myself involved - I take responsibility for myself. Why on earth can't trans people do the same? If people asserting their biology is 'triggering' (hate that word) why open the threads to begin with. I do not expect people to tailor their discussions on MN to avoid setting off my mental health issues (and I have no doubt I am the only person who is affected by these threads) so why are women expected to tailor their threads to appease one group, particularly when the threads is question state biological facts? Let's face it a lot of threads are not about debate they are about support and the threads you mention are an example of this.

I can't really get past that. Find it triggering? Don't read or hide the thread, no one is forcing you. Simple.

I object to women being policed because some people open threads of their own volition and are 'triggered' by them.

Biology is not up for debate, it cannot be disputed. Are we only allowed to use the MN feminist board if we 'debate' nicely? Why does this not apply elsewhere on the site? Why should a feminist board alter its terms of debate just because transpeople (let's face it they will be transpeople of the male persuasion) trawling a feminist site feel the need to take offence at women stating biological facts?
Why should a feminist board pander to MEN?

• I am not the only person affected by these threads

• threads in question

I also missed off a load of question marks in my haste

(Justine why can't we edit? - I am far too trigger happy with the post button - I know, I should take responsibility myself )

While I'm here - I do appreciate MN allowing this debate for so long, please don't fail us now.

Thanks for the response, Justine.

How do you propose to prevent Mumsnet becoming a hostile place for women?

Come on MNHQ, let's be frank. Why would biologically male trans people even be here on the Feminism And Women's Rights Board to get themselves all offended? You won't win this with them.

In fact, some people come here with the intention of being outraged. Funnily enough they don't hang places like Reddit so much. Mumsnet seems to be an easy target.

But thank you Mumsnet for allowing this essential debate to continue! You are stars for standing up to all the bullying and distortions.

Message for the Minister

Three years ago I was in a woman only rare disease disability group. The disability is worse in people with XX chromosomes due to muscle and hormones. One comorbid health issue is PoTS (postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome), with a very high suicide ideology rate.

Trans activists attacked us said we were murdering them for talking about our health. They caused huge upset to vulnerable physically house bound women, who have as a result of the physical illness anxiety and depression. They isolated women and stopped them getting support online as the group had to go secret to stop further abuse of ill vulnerable women by these people.

We are also have a high comorbid autistic level. Trans activists are going after our children too.

Our disabled spaces and services are now being suggested by able bodied women as spaces the trans community should be moved along to, these were harder fought for than women only spaces, disabled people crawled on the ground for these rights. Most recently able bodied parents stole our bus spaces. Do not make us have to fight again!

Another comorbid condition is brain fog, we should not be abused for misgendering because of our disability or convicted of a crime because of misgendering due to brain fog. We have protected characteristic rights too.

These people have terrorised me for over three years with gaslighting, their control issues and threats of abuse. I haven't been able to access health care, public spaces etc due to genuine fears for example that I will be another who will ask for a female HCP and be met with a male bodied HCP as has already happened. I can't post here for support as I once could because I can't speak freely or the truth as I once could. I first joined MN in 2009.

I feel like Thomas More living under Henry VIII and politicians allowed this.

Other protected characteristics should be considered by the impact of trans rights reforms.

That's great.

But why is the person who said

Since the thread is about biology, it is apt to compare a trans woman vagina with that of a woman who has had an hysterectomy. Biologically both are blind canals.

Still here after that offensive remark?

You have suspended others for much less and you have deleted their comment in line with the new guidelines, and I am sure other comments of theirs have been deleted. So what's the deal?

Whenyousawonesetoffootsteps

Your voice matters. They should be listening.

I didn't open yesterday's thread as the title just seemed to be stating the bleeding obvious.

Outfuckjngrageous

Thank you Justine. Many of us appreciate the pressure that you must be under from some well funded and lawyered up organisations who would love to 'take down Mumsnet' using whatever strategies that they can. And being an 'open access ' site of course you are vulnerable to the random poster who posts genuinely hateful comments (for whatever reason) which can then be screenshotted as evidence.

I'd just ask that you remember that just as trans posters claim that they are being marginalised / excluded from discussions on FWR, many biological women feel excluded and marginalised by beliefs that eradicate the very existence of 'biological women'. There are some very moving threads at the moment on FWR , the trans widows, the lurkers thread and the one on mental health where women post about their personal struggles with what is happening to women. I hope that, as you navigate this mess that is not of your making, the vulnerability of women is recognised and seen as equally important as that claimed by transactivists.

@WhenYouSawOneSetOfFootsteps your story makes me sad and angry in equal measure for the women in your group. This is the kind of thing which needs to be addressed and in order to do that we have to assert ourselves and our BIOLOGY which is what we have tried to do and now that isn't allowed either. MN have no obligation to FWR, not really, it is one board in a forum operating as a business but the women working for MN should think about how hard the want to police women's language because while it may not affect them personally now - one day it might and what then?

Sometimes we need to stand together - we need that solidarity but it isn't allowed in case someone deliberately comes here to deliberately open a thread to deliberately upset themselves. Ridiculous really.

Just a point @MNHQ

I have never taken part in a spartus thread before. I have not seen the need to. I didn't think it added anything to the debate. But not did I think it took away. Everyone was free to contribute as they wished. It was just women expressing the strength of their feeling. Which I do think important.

What I saw from MNHQ itself in terms of its policy, disgusted me that much I thought that I had no choice BUT to post. Because MNHQ response itself made it impossible to let go.

MNHQ saying they would ban discussion pretty much because they don't like it.

Let me make this absolutely clear so HQ understand this; every time you make a decision to ban, you pour flames on the fire. You further radicalise women. You create a Streisand effect.

It will not crush nor kill off what women think. It will just create more division and make women more determined to speak out.

Bans on Spartacus threads are counter productive. The just provoke other threads talking about biology, just phrased differently. Plus simmering anger you have created.

If you let Spartacus threads run their course they are just an outlet for frustration.

Cut off the head of a hydra and two more appear, I think the phrase is.

You are not dealing with the problem. You have become part of the problem.

This isn't going away.

Spartacus threads will continue in one form or another and you are naive to believe they won't.

I know several other long-term posters have the same conditions.

I see what you're saying Kitty and have lots of sympathy for your view - I think the difference is when it comes to minority groups which have suffered considerable oppression/discrimination. Trans people fall into that category (even if certain activists seem to be more likely to be oppressors than oppressed), hence our moderation is more interventionist than it might be otherwise.

We also want to be inclusive and have different and diverse opinion on Mumsnet. However strongly you feel about this issue you have to admit there's an alternative view that is also quite widespread. We want Mumsnet to be a place where contrary views can be expressed.

@KittyKlaws

Thank you for responding to people Justine. I wasn't about yesterday and so I missed the thread and issues. I have since read it and felt the modding was heavy-handed to say the least.

I do have one issue with what you have said:

Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

Ok - there is a certain type of thread on Mumsnet which upsets me, causes me anxiety and can affect me for days after (I'm not saying what they are as I'd rather not give ammunition to anyone). I spy these threads and I hide them OR I don't open them. I do not go and cry to MNHQ about them despite the fact I really do feel bad even to see titles of some. My solution is not to get myself involved - I take responsibility for myself. Why on earth can't trans people do the same? If people asserting their biology is 'triggering' (hate that word) why open the threads to begin with. I do not expect people to tailor their discussions on MN to avoid setting off my mental health issues (and I have no doubt I am the only person who is affected by these threads) so why are women expected to tailor their threads to appease one group, particularly when the threads is question state biological facts? Let's face it a lot of threads are not about debate they are about support and the threads you mention are an example of this.

I can't really get past that. Find it triggering? Don't read or hide the thread, no one is forcing you. Simple.

I object to women being policed because some people open threads of their own volition and are 'triggered' by them.

@Ereshkigal

Come on MNHQ, let's be frank. Why would biologically male trans people even be here on the Feminism And Women's Rights Board to get themselves all offended? You won't win this with them.

That might be true but it's not just biologically male people who are alienated by the GC stance though. I'd say quite a lot of the young adults I've met (male, female, whatever) are too.

Sorry but the argument yesterday that we weren’t allowed to talk about our female biology in case some random trans person came across it and got offended was the biggest bit of bullshitI’ve ever come across. You need to think about who is this site actually FOR??

Do we not have a obligation to explain the impact of becoming a mother / father and how that influences how you view sex and relationships in general to younger people?

Saying it 'alienates' them doesn't cut it, if we are talking about important stuff which has had a profound affect on our lives.

It's not about being Gender Critical imho. It's about promoting critical thought full stop.

If young people can't handle that and need to be 'protected' from it, there is something very wrong indeed.

Or are you just finding a roundabout way of saying that younger users are more lucrative to MNs business model?

Sorry, but yes I am now that cynical. I'd rather, if that was the case, you just came out and said it tbh.

Ah the young.

And if you don’t want to be offensive to anyone then why don’t you close down AIBU and many of the other threads which could well be offensive to other pp out there..?

I'd say quite a lot of the young adults I've met (male, female, whatever) are too.

Hi Justine. Appreciate the response. They may be, yes, (but maybe they need to get over themselves frankly, it's not all about them) but I happen to know that many of them are also offended by talking about female biology and statements like "pregnant women" and "women's health" Is that something you're going to look at, in order to provide a welcoming atmosphere at Mumsnet?

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/840283430113931264?s=20

Oh my giddy aunt.

They are the most oppressedest group in the world unlike us lucky women have nothing to complain about.

Come on now. You know and we know they are actually the most litigious and authoritarian in the world.

Let's be honest so we can call it a day.

Young people today seem to get terribly upset when someone disagrees with them, about anything. We see this in the calls for no platform ing and safe spaces in our universities.

But let's be honest, young people are not really your (or your advertisers) target market.

I'm assuming you've never spent much time around feminist online spaces. There has always been pressure "to be nice" to be inclusive. I am disappointed that Mumsnet is policing a feminist space to a different standard than the rest of the board.

I get offended when pp moan about smokers and vapers and pp complaining about cats pooping on their garden. But so what? Why do this group have special rights and need to be protected from women talking TO EACH OTHER??

'male, female, whatever

There are only two sexes Justine.