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Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

571 replies

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 18:22

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Incarnationsofunderstanding · 04/07/2018 20:13

Justine - don’t you think the fact that the young are more engaged in this is actually THE REASON we should be fighting it? Yes body dismorphia is a thing, yes it must be horrific but driving the mutilation of young bodies on a trend is terrifying and we should be looking at that, not just accepting it!

Justine - don’t you think the fact this INCREASES the oppression of women makes it pertinent to fight? I don’t want to be boiled down to a feeling in a dress, I don’t want to leap back in feminism, and as a recent rape complainant (I am COMPLAINING I am not a victim or a survivor), I am truly concerned about that and about the loss of safe spaces for rape referrals.

Is it a legal reason or a moral one that shuts this down.

Oh and finally, just remember Marketing is a women heavy industry and there may be some advertisers lurking around these parts if it’s actually all about the bottom line, and they aren’t using you to target the young...

WhenYouSawOneSetOfFootsteps · 04/07/2018 20:14

Before I dereg.

Thank you to all the people that made me laugh, that supported my family and educated me over the years.

I opened my heart on this thread and feel Justine has slapped me in the face with her comments.

I feel very depressed as a result, I am in tears as I type.

This is not the place for me anymore.

Writersblock2 · 04/07/2018 20:16

This is absolute bullshit and I am not watering down my language or pandering to you as if both you and I are children and I have to appease you or I don’t get to play.

This is what women and girls have been doing since time began. Being the caring ones, the people who have to smile as we are being abused daily, the ones who have to step aside and let men have their space and their voices.

No more! Are you listening? Feminism is for women, these boards are for women. And your blatant, complete lack of regard for women who have given you your success here is disgusting.

We are fighting not to be erased and women like you are gagging us, trussing us up, and handing us over to the TRAs.

But you know what? We are still fighting, and we will continue to fight. It might not be here on Mumsnet, but we will not stop. We will even fight for women like you who are openly, publically saying that women do not matter. We do matter. Our biology matters.

Middleoftheroad · 04/07/2018 20:21

What I saw from MNHQ itself in terms of its policy, disgusted me that much I thought that I had no choice BUT to post. Because MNHQ response itself made it impossible to let go.

This

Ereshkigal · 04/07/2018 20:24

It is not harder to be a male who identifies as female, than it is to be literally, biologically, physically, anatomically, immutably female

THIS.

UrsulaPandress · 04/07/2018 20:24

Justine has hardly had a hard paper round.

So maybe trans people have things a lot harder than her privileged self.

But dear fucking god I find that statement so beyond the pale I don't know what to say.

But if shows where this furum's loyalties lie. And it ain't with women.

YourMajestyJ · 04/07/2018 20:25

@JustineMumsnet Why have you left up homophobic posts saying that men can be lesbians, even though they have been reported?

ResistanceIsNecessary · 04/07/2018 20:30

I think to dismiss young people's views is short-sighted and potentially alienating. These young adults are our future leaders, thinkers, creators and trailblazers. Youth is a very common time of black and white views, because life events haven't yet etched the shades of grey that experience brings.

It's noteworthy that Man Friday and similar groups have tried to raise awareness and educate using relatable situations, humour and civil approaches to discourse. And it's what we all need to keep doing - explaining, breaking things down, providing facts and evidence.

Snappity · 04/07/2018 20:32

It seems however that the gender critical view of biology can be expressed but opposing views are moderated. That doesn't feel right.

A lot of the biological claims by gender critical feminists are offensive to trans and intersex women (like myself) and I would like to see more of them deleted.

Snappity · 04/07/2018 20:35

Justine, have you read this thread about the impact of all this on the mental health of your users

But equally denying trans women are women is bad for their mental health, for almost exactly the same reasons. How should that be balanced?

NanaNoodleman · 04/07/2018 20:36

They are not claims. They are facts.
I find many facts painful to acknowledge- we all do. But I am not arrogant enough to demand they be suppressed because of that.

MadgeMak · 04/07/2018 20:37

I think Mumsnet towers are between a rock and hard place here, I don't doubt for second that they are getting shitloads of abuse for allowing any discussion of trans ideology, and I feel for them because their livelihoods and quite probably their actual lives are being threatened as result. Unfortunately it's now time to pick a side, you either capitulate to the trans cult completely without question, or you take a stand. I know what I'm going to do.

UrsulaPandress · 04/07/2018 20:40

Because Snappity. Transwomdn are not women.

I'm so sorry if that offends you. But you saying you are a woman offends me.

(Actually no it doesn't. It makes me a bit sad).

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 20:40

I am finding it difficult to believe that Justine isn't actively trying to drive off 'troublemakers' from the forum right now.

The more I think about the comment about if she'd been trans it'd been harder, the angrier I get.

That's the shit I got from my parents whilst they were blind to all the issues I went through which they never even knew about as they were so focused on their other child.

They were shocked when I finally told them. By then it was too late.

Don't ignore or dismiss what's right under your nose and what people are telling you. It will come back to haunt you.

Pratchet · 04/07/2018 20:41

Trans women are women who are transgender, that is, they wish to be men and they have a male 'gender identity'. Males who wish to be women and who have a female 'gender identity' are transgender men.

Pratchet · 04/07/2018 20:42

If so, quite a few are leaving. Achievement unlocked?

UnderHerEye · 04/07/2018 20:42

@JustineMumsnet

As the woman who started mumsnet I am aghast that you have just posted this

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

Spend a day reading the threads on your website, read about women who have experienced rape, DV, assault, women who have suffered from PTSD brought on by childbirth, women who are agonising over carrying on with breastfeeding, women who are raising children alone, women who are facing the agony of being infertile, women who dealing with cervical cancer, women who have faced bullying and oppression at work because they have had time off to raise their babies, and then there is the children- girls who have their genitals butchered, girls who can’t access education, girls who are forced into arranged marriages, girls who were being systematically raped and abused and no one listened to them because they were poor, I could go on and on about the shit, the daily unrelenting shit that women have to deal with simply because they are women.

@JustineMumsnet go and read the forums on your own website and come back and say that women dont have it harder with a straight face. You should be ashamed of yourself

LastTrainEast · 04/07/2018 20:42

A lot of the biological FACTS by gender critical feminists are offensive to trans and intersex women (like myself) and I would really REALLY like to see more of them deleted.

Fixed that for you Snappity

FermatsTheorem · 04/07/2018 20:43

It seems however that the gender critical view of biology can be expressed but opposing views are moderated. That doesn't feel right.

A lot of the biological claims by gender critical feminists are offensive to trans and intersex women (like myself) and I would like to see more of them deleted.

There's biological fact, which should never be deleted, then there's grossly offensive comparisons like telling women who've had hysterectomies that their vagina is now a "blind canal". Though personally I'm not in favour of even that being deleted. I like to people to see what the views on both sides are, warts and all, and draw their own conclusions. I find the offensive posts can often be the most illuminating, though often not in the way that the poster intended them to be.

Pratchet · 04/07/2018 20:43

It is funny that it was the last answer before 'right, I'm off'. Weird.

UrsulaPandress · 04/07/2018 20:44

Justine's life may have been harder because she's had an easy pass.

SimonBridges · 04/07/2018 20:46

I am infertile.
Therefore I have the pregnancy/childbirth boards hidden as I find it upsetting.
I don’t ask for people to deny they are pregnant.

NanaNoodleman · 04/07/2018 20:48

My son has autism. He may never live independently of me. I am frightened about what will happen to him when I die.
Presumably, applying Justine logic, if logic is the word I want here, I am entitled to demand the deletion of all threads referring to children going to university, getting jobs, having their own families.
Get on with it Justine

Moonkissedlegs · 04/07/2018 20:52

@UnderHerEye that really needed posting on this thread. I hope that Justine reads it and has a long hard think about what she posted upthread. Am still reeling from it tbh!

Popchyk · 04/07/2018 20:52

"I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans my life would have been about a zillion times harder."

This is Philip Bunce, who identifies as transgender.

Can you tell me in what way he is oppressed?

Thanks.