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MNHQ

Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

9 replies

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 18:22

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

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MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 18:57

I see what you're saying Kitty and have lots of sympathy for your view - I think the difference is when it comes to minority groups which have suffered considerable oppression/discrimination. Trans people fall into that category (even if certain activists seem to be more likely to be oppressors than oppressed), hence our moderation is more interventionist than it might be otherwise.

We also want to be inclusive and have different and diverse opinion on Mumsnet. However strongly you feel about this issue you have to admit there's an alternative view that is also quite widespread. We want Mumsnet to be a place where contrary views can be expressed.

@KittyKlaws

Thank you for responding to people Justine. I wasn't about yesterday and so I missed the thread and issues. I have since read it and felt the modding was heavy-handed to say the least.

I do have one issue with what you have said:

Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

Ok - there is a certain type of thread on Mumsnet which upsets me, causes me anxiety and can affect me for days after (I'm not saying what they are as I'd rather not give ammunition to anyone). I spy these threads and I hide them OR I don't open them. I do not go and cry to MNHQ about them despite the fact I really do feel bad even to see titles of some. My solution is not to get myself involved - I take responsibility for myself. Why on earth can't trans people do the same? If people asserting their biology is 'triggering' (hate that word) why open the threads to begin with. I do not expect people to tailor their discussions on MN to avoid setting off my mental health issues (and I have no doubt I am the only person who is affected by these threads) so why are women expected to tailor their threads to appease one group, particularly when the threads is question state biological facts? Let's face it a lot of threads are not about debate they are about support and the threads you mention are an example of this.

I can't really get past that. Find it triggering? Don't read or hide the thread, no one is forcing you. Simple.

I object to women being policed because some people open threads of their own volition and are 'triggered' by them.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 19:00

@Ereshkigal

Come on MNHQ, let's be frank. Why would biologically male trans people even be here on the Feminism And Women's Rights Board to get themselves all offended? You won't win this with them.

That might be true but it's not just biologically male people who are alienated by the GC stance though. I'd say quite a lot of the young adults I've met (male, female, whatever) are too.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 19:11

Well, we didn't actually ban yesterday's thread and yes I agree that it was in response to Minister's statement rather than a an attempt to be goady (so a natural outlet). Not particularly concerned about whether "women are radicalised" as you put it. Back in 2013 over 58% of Mumsnet users said they were more likely to "consider feminist perspectives" since joining Mumsnet and 57% said that they'd changed an aspect of their relationship with their partner as a result of reading/participating in discussions about feminism and gender issues.

But 85% also said that using MN helps them have a better understanding of other people's lives and choice. That's the thing we're trying to preserve here.

@RedToothBrush

Just a point *@MNHQ*

I have never taken part in a spartus thread before. I have not seen the need to. I didn't think it added anything to the debate. But not did I think it took away. Everyone was free to contribute as they wished. It was just women expressing the strength of their feeling. Which I do think important.

What I saw from MNHQ itself in terms of its policy, disgusted me that much I thought that I had no choice BUT to post. Because MNHQ response itself made it impossible to let go.

MNHQ saying they would ban discussion pretty much because they don't like it.

Let me make this absolutely clear so HQ understand this; every time you make a decision to ban, you pour flames on the fire. You further radicalise women. You create a Streisand effect.

It will not crush nor kill off what women think. It will just create more division and make women more determined to speak out.

Bans on Spartacus threads are counter productive. The just provoke other threads talking about biology, just phrased differently. Plus simmering anger you have created.

If you let Spartacus threads run their course they are just an outlet for frustration.

Cut off the head of a hydra and two more appear, I think the phrase is.

You are not dealing with the problem. You have become part of the problem.

This isn't going away.

Spartacus threads will continue in one form or another and you are naive to believe they won't.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 19:18

@WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice

Oh my giddy aunt.

They are the most oppressedest group in the world unlike us lucky women have nothing to complain about.

Hmm

Come on now. You know and we know they are actually the most litigious and authoritarian in the world.

Let's be honest so we can call it a day.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 19:29

@LangCleg

I'd say quite a lot of the young adults I've met (male, female, whatever) are too.

My two sons are young adults and they are not only gender critical but also highly turned off by the authoritarianism in student level politics. Neither of them did much on-campus socialising at uni for that very reason.

With respect, is this thread really the place to insinuate the ageist and sexist trope of the embittered older woman, Justine? It's very upsetting to me that you would imply this in the wake of yesterday. And I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it very upsetting to see you say something like this.

We are not a small minority of embittered old women. We are a wide range of women standing up for women and girls on a website for mothers. And, according to the latest polling, only 18% of the population - across all age groups - disagree with us.

Really not insinuating anything - but the age divide on this issue has been well documented. Doesn't mean anyone's embittered or wrong, it's just a fact.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 19:39

I have to leave now to see kids have a stiff drink (or three) but obviously we'll keep reading and pick this up again at some point for sure. Will let everyone know as and when PM meeting occurs.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 23:38

Sisyphus I'm really sorry that happened to you and your siblings.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 09/07/2018 08:49

Thought I'd point out that the catalyst for my meeting with Penny Mordaunt was to have a conversation in particular about women in the workplace and some ideas we have about how to close the gender pay gap. Obviously there will be opportunity to raise other important issues but those of you who've assumed this meeting is happening solely because of trans issues are erroneous.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 10/07/2018 00:05

Ok thanks for all your comments. Not all of them, I believe, have been entirely fair but with regard to the personal stuff, as someone very rightly said it's not about me, so I think the best thing is to let it pass and not get into any back and forth!

The thing I'd like to say is this. I believe that Mumsnet is taken seriously by those who have real legislative power and does have a voice in agenda setting precisely because of it's perceived civility.

If we lose our ability to have civilised conversations without insulting language or hyperbole then we become just another ranty social media space that no one needs to take seriously.

I suspect that we've been singled out by e.g. Pink News not so much because we're largely female but because they know that Mumsnet/ Mumsnetters have that influence and so yes, they'd love to have the world (and in particular the lawmakers) believe we're a haven for shouty transphobes and will do their best to discredit our forums.

So there's a very practical reason to ask people to post in a way that accommodates others (opinions not facts) and to avoid personal attacks.

That's not about succumbing to the patriarchy, rather I think it's about maximising Mumsnetters' voices.

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