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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

571 replies

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 18:22

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Bowlofbabelfish · 10/07/2018 08:29

The thing I'd like to say is this. I believe that Mumsnet is taken seriously by those who have real legislative power and does have a voice in agenda setting precisely because of it's perceived civility.

I think this is true. There really isn’t another space like MN. The site has a reputation (atmosphere? Feel?) that’s unlike anywhere else. It’s intelligent, it’s often very funny, and it’s parent focused which is hugely important because it sets the tone and stops it being dismissed as just some random forum. The MN membership IS the voter base in many ways. You often see threads on here that seem to have come straight from one party HQ or another and are designed to gauge response to some idea or other (which the next month gets floated in parliament..)

I will slightly disagree about it not being about us being a female dominated space. I DO think that’s important actually. It’s probably less so to the political crowd who are often on here floating ideas and gauging responses, but I do believe it drives a certain hate-based crowd (MRA, extreme TRA) who cannot bear to see women congregate. It’s an unpleasant thought, but I think there is truth in it.

I would give a lot to have the access you do justine - dont underestimate how valuable that is. Being able to access ministers etc IS power.

R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 08:41

but I do believe it drives a certain hate-based crowd (MRA, extreme TRA) who cannot bear to see women congregate. It’s an unpleasant thought, but I think there is truth in it.*

New Statesman article May 2018 by Glosswitch:

"The demonisation of Mumsnet is just the latest incarnation of witch-hunting
Naturally, it frightens people to think of what a group of mothers might actually demand.
(extract)
“The deliberate withdrawal of women from men has almost always been seen as a potentially dangerous or hostile act, a conspiracy, a subversion, a needless and grotesque thing.” Thus wrote Adrienne Rich in 1976’s Of Woman Born, her seminal exploration of the politics of motherhood. From the workers gossiping in the spinning circle to old wives passing down knowledge of contraception and abortion, women gathered in isolation have long been considered untrustworthy. What might they be saying? What could they be plotting? And how, above all, might they be controlled

It’s a problem that’s never gone away, though the context has changed. Anxiety over women’s speech – fuelling violent backlash in the form of witch trials and scold’s bridles – arose at a time when, to quote Marina Warner, “women dominated the webs of information and power; the neighbourhood, the village, the well, the washing place, the shops, the stalls, the street were their arena of influence, not only the household?" (continues)

And yet, mean or otherwise, unless one takes into account the historical fear and demonisation of women communicating without supervision, it is frankly bizarre to see activists appointing themselves monitors of Mumsnet conversations on the relationship between sex and gender. It is both disproportionate and a distraction from meaningful work to dismantle stereotypes.

The political engagement of mothers and older women matters. Naturally it frightens people to think of what these highly-exploited groups might actually demand – and of the services they might stop providing – if a sufficient level of organisation could be achieved. This has always been the case, long before the internet came into being. This is the context in which we should see pushback against Mumsnet when compared to other, far more offensive but somehow less vilified social networks." (continues)

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/05/demonisation-mumsnet-just-latest-incarnation-witch-hunting

R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 08:43

top quote with bold fail is Bowl's from previous post.

Datun · 10/07/2018 08:48

kitchenrollinrollinrollin

You write the longest posts about us not listening to other people's point of view, or being an echo chamber, and how lots of people agree with you via PM, etc, but haven't made a single counter argument to what we are saying.

Not one.

Just telling women they are wrong, or going about in the wrong way, or people disagree with them!

Well go on then. What's your argument?

JustineMumsnet

If the feedback you get says that our credibility is in direct proportion to civility, reasoned debate, and control of high emotion, etc, then I'll believe that.

You are in the position to know, after all.

I will do anything I can to maintain the integrity and credibility of discussion here and encourage as many influential people as possible to read it.

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2018 09:31

If we lose our ability to have civilised conversations without insulting language or hyperbole then we become just another ranty social media space that no one needs to take seriously.

Justine I agree with this in principle but I also have a fear here too.

The thing about Godwin's Law is important. People think that invoking it is always hyperbolic.

The trouble is it's use will increase as authoritarianism becomes more common. What we see in Trump's America with children in cages, pregnant women in shackles and denied medical attention when they miscarried and Trump's decision to pressure countries into not following a UN resolution to support breastfeeding are horrendous. The worrying thing is this is what they allowed the cameras to see. There is now a legal case where a child in state care was returned to her parents with lice. She was three.

Things have to be seen in this context.

Things have been normalised very quickly which we thought impossible. And there is every suggestion this will get worse, in terms of what is accepted.

I think it therefore becomes very difficult to avoid hyperbole if you are politically aware and conscious of the dehumanising process.

This very much affects women first and hardest; in terms of child protection and in terms of economic hardship and in terms of social status and standing.

It does all come back to the fact of where women's rights came from and why they evolved. Unless you understand that comprehensively, with so many political shockwaves and changes going on, it will be very easy to undermine women's right unwittingly.

Especially when so many cabinet ministers are middle aged white men, including some who are on record with a strong dislike of feminism and opposition to women's rights.

Fear doesn't come from no where. What you have to assess is whether that fear is justified and can be explained rationally even if it sounds far fetched initially. It may be on the mark.

We live in a comfortable society, where so many of us have no first hand comprehension of hardship or adversity. This leads us into a false sense of security and apathy.

The notion that 'I'll be just fine. It doesn't hurt me' can be naive and dangerous.

The one lesson from history you should learn is that bad things can happen, especially if good people don't want to see it coming.

Women who have survived something have shaken off that complacency. They understand that bad things can happen to anyone. It means that they might be more able to spot worrying trends and dangerous policy than others.

They should be listened to harder for this reason alone.

Datun · 10/07/2018 09:59

RedToothBrush

You know what, your perceptions always have such a profound ring of authenticity.

I agree with everything you say, despite that very uncomfortable feeling of impending doom. And I mean that generally, not just over this issue.

I can't be the only one desperate for a grown-up to take charge.

R0wantrees · 10/07/2018 10:04

This very much affects women first and hardest; in terms of child protection and in terms of economic hardship and in terms of social status and standing.

There is a an important current thread running about Safeguarding and systemic failures, current threats & consquences which supports Redtoothbrush's comments.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo

Ereshkigal · 10/07/2018 10:06

Stop goading SD. No one is impressed.

Ereshkigal · 10/07/2018 10:06

Wrong thread! Blush

Pratchet · 10/07/2018 10:08

It's never the wrong thread for that

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 10/07/2018 10:14

I have to say just reading through this is like drinking from a crystal clear mountain spring of knowledge and ideas in a world of rank stinking intellectual stagnance.

Loves ya mners Flowers

Mogleflop · 10/07/2018 18:31

Still not saying anything. Baffling! It's all waffle versus facts. My brain doesn't do that very well.

RedToothBrush · 19/07/2018 11:17

@JustineMumsnet this is a hugely important report which I hope you will take the time to read in relation to ALL women's rights, but there is a particular importance to the trans debate.

Adam Wagner @AdamWagner1
Legal aid ‘deserts’ make human rights unenforceable - News from Parliament - excellent new report from @HumanRightsCtte out today

[[www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/joint-select/human-rights-committee/news-parliament-2017/enforcing-human-rights-report-published-17-19/
Legal aid ‘deserts’ make human rights unenforceable

Take a look at the "The need for a culture of human rights" section of the report from page 39. Makes important recommendations such as focus on public legal education and teaching human rights in schools

This is a great conclusion from @HumanRightsCtte's report- will anyone listen? Please retweet and like to get this report out there!

THIS MUST BE QUOTED IN RESPONSE TO THE FARCE THAT IS THE GRA CONSULTATION.

Why is the Minister for Women and Equalities ignoring this? T

his is HUGE. It makes the point very succinctly that the desire to be politically correct is stiffling debate and may prevent human rights from being exercised despite the law existing. If the law is unenforcable then those rights are meaningless in practice.

On the home page for the report Harriet Harman is quoted saying the following:

Harriet Harman MP, Chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, said:

“For rights to be effective they have to be capable of being enforced.

To do this, we must have adequate and equality of access to legal information and advice; a robustly independent judiciary and legal profession; strong National Human Rights Institutions, including the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a culture which understands the concept of the rule of law, respects human rights and which is supported by the Government.

At the moment we are seeing the erosion of all of those enforcement mechanisms because of a lack of access to justice and lack of understanding of the fundamental importance of human rights and the rule of law.

The Government must act urgently to address this.

Government, Parliament, the media and the legal profession all have a responsibility to consider the importance of the rule of law, and the role that rights which can be enforced through an independent court system, plays in that.

Government must exercise self-restraint and refrain from criticising the judiciary and legal profession.”

This is the report summary in full:
Summary

Human rights have been central to the UK constitution and its legal system throughout its history. The following section of Magna Carta remains in force today, and can be found on the Government’s legislation website.

“We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.”

For rights to be effective they have to be capable of being enforced. For that enforcement, it is essential to have:

  • adequate access to legal information, advice and assistance for everyone at all income levels and in all areas of the country;
  • a robustly independent judiciary;
  • a robustly independent legal profession;
  • a strong Equality and Human Rights Commission, held accountable for its work, and strong National Human Rights Institutions in the devolved administrations, similarly held accountable; and
  • a culture which understands the concept of the rule of law, respects human rights and accepts that they will be enforced and which is supported by the Government.

Access to justice is fundamental to the rule of law. We are concerned that the reforms to legal aid introduced by the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (LASPO) have made access to justice more difficult for many, for whom it is simply unaffordable. Moreover, there are large areas of the country which are “legal aid deserts”, as practitioners withdraw from providing legal aid services since they can no longer afford to do this work following reductions in legal aid funding by successive governments over the past three decades. The Government is currently reviewing LASPO and we make recommendations for that review. There also needs to be a broader review into access to justice and the provision of advice and assistance, going beyond matters which might be seen as purely legal, to ensure that people can get the help needed to enforce their rights before matters escalate into expensive adversarial court proceedings. The remit of the Equality and Human Rights Commission should be extended so that it can take human rights cases on the same basis as it supports equality cases. It should use those powers assertively and be given adequate resources to allow it to do so. Its work should be more closely scrutinised by Parliament accordingly.

There is a need for better general understanding of the role of the courts in enforcing human rights, and in balancing the rights of one group against another. Ill-informed media criticism can undermine support for the legal system which protects everybody’s rights–even those of groups who are unpopular. There is also a need for better education about the legal system in general, and the way in which it protects people’s human rights, and the Government should do more to support and encourage this.

In its strategy for countering terrorism, the Government sets out its definition of British values:

“We believe it is essential to protect the values of our society–the rule of law, individual liberty, democracy, mutual respect, tolerance and understanding of different faiths and beliefs [ … ]"

Respect for the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary are values that the Government itself must demonstrate. The UK is fortunate in having a robustly independent judiciary. There have been occasions when Ministerial reactions to individual judgments have been inappropriate. We note that the requirement to uphold judicial independence is binding on all Ministers, in addition to the Lord Chancellor’s duty to defend such judicial independence. The Government should consider whether those requirements should also be written into the Ministerial Code.

A legal profession which fears adverse consequences from taking up unpopular causes will not be effective in defending rights: the Government must be careful not to use its voice and influence improperly.

The Government needs to make sure it appropriately prioritises due respect for rights, so that administrative decisions are taken with proper consideration of people’s rights.

Individuals should be protected from abuse by the State, and public bodies should respect the law. The UK’s legal framework allows individuals to protect their rights and gives the courts the task of deciding that balance in individual cases, within the parameters set by Parliament, which includes the Human Rights Act. There is legitimate debate over how best to protect rights and where the balance should be struck if rights compete. But no-one should lose sight of the fact that human rights, and the ability to enforce them, are amongst the hallmarks of a civilised country. Government, Parliament, the media and the legal profession all have a responsibility to consider the importance of the rule of law, and the role that rights which can be enforced through an independent court system plays in that.

My Bold.

How can women make sure their rights are being considered if they are not even allowed at the table??!

Women and children are particularly vulnerable to legal aid cuts.

I've not had time to go through the report with a fine tooth comb but my first glance at the topic headlines came across this gem:

A hierarchy of rights?
149.The Committee received submissions indicating that some rights are not given sufficient weight compared to others, which could undermine confidence in the human rights framework as some individuals feel their rights are not protected.145 ADF International commented that: “Freedom of conscience appears in all of the major human rights treaties” and submitted that “while freedom of conscience is a fundamental human right … the lack of a clear legal test to assess whether it has been violated in practice means that it is difficult to enforce.” and “recommends that the Government advances a legal test to evaluate claims of conscience to ensure the robust protection and enforceability of freedom of conscience in practice."

150.The Barnabas Fund raised specific concerns that the culture within some public bodies, including the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland (ECNI), “appears to conflate the promotion of human rights and ‘equality’ with promoting the ideological agenda of particular minority groups [ … ]” When asked in oral evidence about how the EHRC prioritised cases, David Isaac, Chair of the EHRC told us that:

“Where we think there are areas, particularly in relation to legal intervention, which are unclear or need to be resolved, we will support those, irrespective of which group it most impacts on, or whether it disadvantages a particular group. From our perspective, there is no hierarchy.”

151.David Russell, Chief Executive of the NIHRC echoed these sentiments and told us that: “[r]ights are for everyone. There is no hierarchy; they are universal. If non-discrimination and freedom of religious belief are in the balance, the commissions have an important role to play” and spoke of the:

“[ … ] commission’s important role of ensuring that the public space for human rights is opened up to everyone. [ … ] Often, the commissions have more in common with faith-based communities than we have differences, particularly around [ … ] social and economic rights, and social justice matters, such as housing and health. There is lots of room for partnership where the perception of there being a dichotomy does not stack up in practice. That has to be voiced.”

152.However, when asked to address concerns as to whether the EHRC had not got the balance right in recent years when considering freedom of belief alongside other rights, David Isaac said:

“I know that there are anxieties. The commission has various stakeholder groups and one is on faith and belief. There are all sorts of discussions, and we have frank but respectful debate on areas where people disagree. We listen, wherever we can, to those differing views, but I am sure we can do more.’’

153.Government, NHRIs and human rights advocates should seek ways of engaging more effectively with the public about how different human rights are balanced, in order to address the perspectives that human rights are “for others and not for us” and that “political correctness” stifles debate. The Government should consider the introduction of a legal test to ensure that claims of conscience and faith are reasonably accommodated within the human rights framework. The rights of minority groups will always be vulnerable, and the acid test of an effective human rights system is that it must protect these groups, while ensuring the rights of the majority are also respected.

Their bold.

IT MAKES OUR POINT EXPLICITLY.

Its has many ramifications for women's rights generally.

Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback
Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback
thebewilderness · 22/07/2018 19:18

Given the recent deletions I would appreciate it if @MNHQ would provide additional clarification on these two points:
2. We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

Are we to understand that discussion of any criminal activity by people who claim to be gender reassigned is not permitted and will be deleted as derogatory and/or aggressive toward them?

3. Sweeping negative generalisations about any group, including trans people and gender-critical feminists, won’t be tolerated.

Does this include pedophile and MRA groups about whom sweeping negative generalizations won't be tolerated? What about pimps and traffickers?
I ask because the site is being targeted by these groups and attempts by members to discuss the strategy documents these groups have published are being deleted.
It is possible that it is not widely known that an effort has been underway for some time to add the P to the LGBT organizations.

These are important issues for parents and grandparents concerned about online grooming of children, and so further clarification on the matter would be appreciated.

Vickyyyy · 23/07/2018 22:46

Good questions thebewilderness. hope there is an answer givwn as these new guidelines seem to be being applied..strangely. I have never had an issue with moderation on here, besides the obvious issues with disablist posts being left to stand an awful lot, but since these new guidelines have came in, along with us being forbidden from critiizing any moderating decisions, well, its not been good. I still don't really get how one mod can say a post is fine, and then hours later another mod comes along, deletes the same post and gives a warning. Along with this apparent 3 strike rule, which does not appear to apply to MRA posts in the FWR section? So only feminists are held to this standard, while MRAs can goad away to their hearts desire?

Albadross · 29/07/2018 10:18

I know this is a week old now but I do hope KitchenRollin has said all of what she's said here to the TRA camp too.

I think it's worth remembering that we're just using words here - they're using literal violence and justifying it.

I find it bizarre that we're the ones being chastised for simply arguing in a way that others may not like or agree with or standing up for ourselves because we actually care about women and girls who have a lot less privilege. I've never ever heard anyone in the trans lobby even mention other trans people who aren't as privileged as they are, they frequently belittle anyone trans who doesn't agree, calling on all manner of slurs to do so.

Nobody is being silenced by feminists here. I'm commonly one person arguing against many others in other forums and usually they block me or veer into 'you're ugly' territory pretty quickly because they don't have anything else left to say that makes any sense.

Case in point: a male who said 'I can argue all day with you (haha)' and then when he ran out of things to say that weren't TWAW he decided actually he had work to do. He silenced himself.

R0wantrees · 31/08/2018 15:41

Current thead wondering about Penny Mordant's response:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3351837-What-Happened-to-the-Penny-Mordaunt-Webchat-with-Mumsnetters

peaktrans · 01/10/2018 08:46

Following

RatRolyPoly · 01/10/2018 19:14

Really glad this thread got bumped; @kitchenrollinrollinrollin loving your work, I do hope you're still around!

KataraJean · 03/10/2018 21:02

It’s very easy for what appears to be a civilised society to slip into utter horror. Never think you’re safe, never be complacent, always stand up if you think something is wrong. Things can go wrong very fast. Learn from the past.

Yes, good that this thread has been bumped. I had not read the above from 'Bowlofbabelfish*

I think this is worth repeating. Many, many people in the early twentieth century believed that eugenics was scientific and an appropriate response to the medical and economic challenges facing society. Many, many people believed the 'science' about some races being superior to others, some people being superior to others.

The ideology existed before the Nazis came to power. It took the Nazis less than a year to put the apparatus in place to start sterilising the wrong sort of people, and around six years to start killing them.

That happened within living human memory. Predominant ideologies are not infallible. If you cannot question things, it becomes very dangerous.

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