Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

Justine MNHQ when you meet with Penny Mordant-please stress that is Trans Women are called Trans women, and Women are called Women-the law would be a lot easier to implement. The gov't made a mistake allowing males to be legally recognised as women. IMHO.

More Laurie Penny:

twitter.com/PennyRed/status/840286951118950400?s=20

There are plenty of trans posters on FWR (and other MN boards) who are also Spartacus, who are scared by what TRAs are demanding in their name and who believe that biology is not bigotry. We mustn't let their voices be lost in some "GC women vs trans people" simplification

Great news that you are meeting Penny Mordaunt soon - hopefully you can persuade her to come on for a web chat, ideally while the GRC consultation is still running so that we can discuss is and draft our responses in the light of what she says.

I don’t think this is a tenable situation, Justine. The problem is that one side of the ‘debate’ are trying to change what it means to be female, whilst the majority of users of MN are here because they are female, because they are TTC, suffering infertility or pregnancy loss, pregnant, having babies, talking about feeding babies, how they sleep, their relationship with their partners (which often are abusive because of sex based inequality). In other words, the raisin d etre of this site revolves around female reproductive and biological processes.

So, while you laudably want to promote inclusive debate, one side of the debate really seeks to shut down the idea that women are biologically born female people. This is not a news or debate site, it is a parenting site, and parenting generally involves eggs, sperm, wombs, breasts before you get to the long history of sex based inequalities in parenting roles.

Are the young people you speak to mothers? Or even fathers for that matter? Because that is when sex-based inequality kicks in.

I don’t even think there is much point writing all this. I can see that you are doing your best, and this is important because some valuable activism has come from this board. But that very activism, and the demographic of your users ( those lactating, gestating, menstruating group who have learned on your boards that No is not the start of a negotiation), is what makes MN vulnerable. When you speak to Penny Mordaunt, it is worth highlighting how empowering same sex spaces have been and continue to be for women.

Back in 2013 over 58% of Mumsnet users said they were more likely to "consider feminist perspectives" since joining Mumsnet and 57% said that they'd changed an aspect of their relationship with their partner as a result of reading/participating in discussions about feminism and gender issues.

What an interesting statistic. I find that really heartening. And it’s why this site is important and why you’re being targeted. I’m not sure of the pressures you’re facing but I can have an educated guess, and I am genuinely sorry that you’re facing them - maybe when it’s all done you can give us the full rundown - there are some litigatious buggers out there. You’re being targeted because you’re a place where women speak, let’s be clear about that. If it was about genuine transphobia they’d be going after kiwifarms and reddit. But they’re not. Which tells you all you need to know. Women speaking together are a threat. Amazing that’s the case in 2018 - that has opened my eyes for sure, and I reckon a lot of others too.

We are awkward women, and we are working for women’s rights and safety and children’s safety too. We are right. Maybe we will win, maybe not - men seem to get what they want most of the time. But...We will keep fighting as we always have done. I’m too old and too pissed off to be silenced.

Noli pati a scelestis opprimi Justine and co. And 💐 to all on here fighting the good fight.

When you meet Penny Mordaunt - do ask her if she thinks humans can change sex 👩🏻‍🔬

Thank you for replying Justine. I do appreciate how difficult this is for you all at HQ - I see the struggle and I feel it internally too. This is not so much directed at you - I see where you are coming from but more a general response to this point of view.

I think the difference is when it comes to minority groups which have suffered considerable oppression/discrimination.

Like women have? With far less progress over a period of hundreds of years than the minority group in question. I'm pretty careful with what I say I have a natural inclination to support the minority and the oppressed but I have always been on the side of women. I certainly don't want to upset a vulnerable teenager, I really, really don't and I can tear myself up about this. But women have faced considerable oppression and discrimination and they still do and much of this is rolling back any progress we have made and obliterating our identity and it is beyond frustrating when women die or are seriously injured at the rate they do/are at the hands of men and it isn't bloody changing and treatment of women in general is getting worse ... then this implication (not by MNHQ) that being reminded of biological fact is somehow worse than that. It really isn't. We understand being discriminated against.

I didn't say which threads affected me but I can tell you now, there isn't all that much difference between me and these transgender people but I'm not the one not opening the threads to pick at the scab.

I still appreciate the site for many reasons but, alas, not the current modding of FWR.

@LangCleg

I'd say quite a lot of the young adults I've met (male, female, whatever) are too.

My two sons are young adults and they are not only gender critical but also highly turned off by the authoritarianism in student level politics. Neither of them did much on-campus socialising at uni for that very reason.

With respect, is this thread really the place to insinuate the ageist and sexist trope of the embittered older woman, Justine? It's very upsetting to me that you would imply this in the wake of yesterday. And I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it very upsetting to see you say something like this.

We are not a small minority of embittered old women. We are a wide range of women standing up for women and girls on a website for mothers. And, according to the latest polling, only 18% of the population - across all age groups - disagree with us.

Really not insinuating anything - but the age divide on this issue has been well documented. Doesn't mean anyone's embittered or wrong, it's just a fact.

Oh dear! A zillion times harder?

Is this all meant to lull a different audience into looking the other way or do you actually mean that. It's really horrific. I mean, that's a horrific thing to say.

Great news that you are meeting Penny Mordaunt soon - hopefully you can persuade her to come on for a web chat, ideally while the GRC consultation is still running so that we can discuss is and draft our responses in the light of what she says.

This. It would be great if you can do this. Thank you for hosting any debate at all, I realise you must be under pressure.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans it my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

I’m not denying trans people have it hard, I can’t imagine going about day to day is easy for them - mainly because men are angry dickheads.

That said, as a HCP, from a medical point of view only, you could not in any way be further from the truth. Our female biology is incredible but it binds and subjugates us and we can never identify our of our anatomy. Medically, women are the most oppressed class on earth. Medical science has more than the funds and ability available across the richest nations to move forward in leaps and bounds in terms of female healthcare but it comes up against road block after road block - namely men. Just look at the new listed scaled back operations - how many are women only procedures or those which impact women (I am talking surgical procedures on children which impact their mother’s career)?

We deserve the right to name our biology and discuss what it is and what it is not.

Will you be able to facilitate the realities of womanhood and science?

Justine, I have first hand family experience of living with someone who is trans.

The idea that trans people are the centre of the universe and have it harder than everyone else, really is bullshit.

My sibling is damn privileged. There are many many posters on the feminism section who have definitely had it harder.

You reveal your own privilege when you say that; you don't reflect the experience of a lot of other women who have had different and much more difficult lives.

Your life experience is not the experience of all women. Nor are all trans people really that oppressed when you examine their background and the support they've had.

Really not insinuating anything - but the age divide on this issue has been well documented. Doesn't mean anyone's embittered or wrong, it's just a fact.

I think it probably is. Because most of those young people haven’t really had a run in with biology yet.
And when those young women run up against their biology - pregnancy illness, birth injuries, motherhood, gynae cancer or infertility then maybe they will reflect a bit more. Or when they go back to work after mat leave and are shunted into the mummy track, or end up doing a full time job and all the housework, or wonder why the men are getting ahead despite generally being mediocre, they will reflect a bit more.

Because the world is a different place once you’ve seen it through that lens. Society may say ‘grumpy old ...’ but I say ‘wise old.’

I de- registered from Mumsnet at the time of the last breach debacle as I concluded that the people who run it are too dim and incompetent to be trusted with my data. This thread, unsurprisingly, has not made me alter my view. However before I flounce again I feel I should say this. As a parent of a child with learning disabilities I have witnessed time and again how parents like me have tried and failed to get MN to deal properly with genuinely vile posts about our children, a struggle which invariably founders on the rocks of “free speech”. And then I see them bend over backwards to accommodate the trans activists like this. But then kids with LDs won’t threaten violence or damage commercial interests will they?
It’s genuinely revolting.

GC women. Old and wrong.
FFS.

The implication that we lack compassion and empathy for trans people's suffering and oppression is maddening.

Being gender critical and acknowledging reality doesn't = being a massive cruel bitch.

Just look at the new listed scaled back operations - how many are women only procedures or those which impact women (I am talking surgical procedures on children which impact their mother’s career)?

YY.

There is only one side bullying here. Trans campaigners have relabelled women as a class without their consent and then want to dictate entirely what would can do and say (including reviving and promoting sexist stereotypes). And in return we are not allowed ask questions or disagree. That is hardly fair at all.

Trans people have the right to live in freedom and safety. And their safety is important. But not over and above the hard won rights and spaces for women and girls.

Our biology dictates a lot of who we are but it does not define use completely. This is what the current trans narrative gets wrong. It is as backwards as the school of thought that believed that women were less intelligent because their brains are generally smaller.

Intelligence has nothing to do with the size of your brain. Just as sex should have nothing to do with gender.

Ah we are giving you a hard time and you are one person responding. I think being genuinely trans would be exceptionally difficult, maybe even harder but that trans umbrella has become very large and I'm not sure everyone under those spokes has been oppressed or had a hard time. I could expand but I'll get myself in trouble.

Anyway have these for trying to answer us all in what must be a difficult situation for MN.

@MNHQ
Thank you for continuing to host these discussions. I am sorry you are being attacked from all sides, and hope you can continue to keep providing a voice for women. I'm new, but this forum means a lot to me already. I respectfully disagree with the idea that the Spartacus threads should be considered hurtful - we wouldn't even need them as an outlet if women weren't being silenced from acknowledging biological reproductive differences. Because typing such words is considered SO heretical, these threads will keep cropping up. The first time I read one I felt like people were typing "2+2=4", over and over again, when everywhere else people had been trying to convince me that "2+2=whatever you want". It was a relief, to see that these simple truths were still allowed to be stated made me quite emotional. This debate really can affect my mental health, and being able to read the considered opinions on this board makes me feel a lot better.
I appreciate that trans people have their own struggles that we need to be sensitive to. But I feel this is a feminist board, and that feminism should be allowed to center natal women due to their sex. That we ought to be allowed to question the logical endpoint of "transgender ideology". The whole reason Mumsnet in particular has been targeted is because this is an increasingly taboo idea. It has become heretical to suggest that natal women should be able to distinguish their needs from the needs of trans women or organise around our biological reality. Quite frankly, I think trans-specific issues are very well represented by multiple media outlets and organisations, and trans voices are not silenced to the same extent as gender critical feminists. I feel we are being called old bitter witches and systematically ostracised (just like the hunts of yesteryear).
So thank you for hosting us. Please keep letting women speak.

Don't forget menopause - we don't see the trans community trying to appropriate that particular "privilege" of womanhood do we?

I have to leave now to see kids have a stiff drink (or three) but obviously we'll keep reading and pick this up again at some point for sure. Will let everyone know as and when PM meeting occurs.

How exactly are trans people more oppressed? Who are you comparing them to?

Bowlofbabelfish

I completely agree with this:

I think it probably is. Because most of those young people haven’t really had a run in with biology yet.
And when those young women run up against their biology - pregnancy illness, birth injuries, motherhood, gynae cancer or infertility then maybe they will reflect a bit more. Or when they go back to work after mat leave and are shunted into the mummy track, or end up doing a full time job and all the housework, or wonder why the men are getting ahead despite generally being mediocre, they will reflect a bit more.

I have seen it happen to women. I'm not sure young women can see right now that we are trying to help them. I just hope it doesn't all go tits up so they end up regretting their current stance.

Enjoy your drink Justine - I expect you need it

I'm not really persuaded by the idea that trans people's lives are 'a zillion times harder' than women's lives.

I acknowledge that trans people face vicious and ubiquitous discrimination. However, the effects of sexism - both personal and structural - are also vicious and ubiquitous. It's unhelpful to minimise sexism by suggesting that transphobia is somehow worse. I simply don't think it's appropriate to attempt to quantify the effects of discrimination in this way.