Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

Well, we didn't actually ban yesterday's thread and yes I agree that it was in response to Minister's statement rather than a an attempt to be goady (so a natural outlet). Not particularly concerned about whether "women are radicalised" as you put it. Back in 2013 over 58% of Mumsnet users said they were more likely to "consider feminist perspectives" since joining Mumsnet and 57% said that they'd changed an aspect of their relationship with their partner as a result of reading/participating in discussions about feminism and gender issues.

But 85% also said that using MN helps them have a better understanding of other people's lives and choice. That's the thing we're trying to preserve here.

@RedToothBrush

Just a point *@MNHQ*

I have never taken part in a spartus thread before. I have not seen the need to. I didn't think it added anything to the debate. But not did I think it took away. Everyone was free to contribute as they wished. It was just women expressing the strength of their feeling. Which I do think important.

What I saw from MNHQ itself in terms of its policy, disgusted me that much I thought that I had no choice BUT to post. Because MNHQ response itself made it impossible to let go.

MNHQ saying they would ban discussion pretty much because they don't like it.

Let me make this absolutely clear so HQ understand this; every time you make a decision to ban, you pour flames on the fire. You further radicalise women. You create a Streisand effect.

It will not crush nor kill off what women think. It will just create more division and make women more determined to speak out.

Bans on Spartacus threads are counter productive. The just provoke other threads talking about biology, just phrased differently. Plus simmering anger you have created.

If you let Spartacus threads run their course they are just an outlet for frustration.

Cut off the head of a hydra and two more appear, I think the phrase is.

You are not dealing with the problem. You have become part of the problem.

This isn't going away.

Spartacus threads will continue in one form or another and you are naive to believe they won't.

I'd say quite a lot of the young adults I've met (male, female, whatever) are too.

My two sons are young adults and they are not only gender critical but also highly turned off by the authoritarianism in student level politics. Neither of them did much on-campus socialising at uni for that very reason.

With respect, is this thread really the place to insinuate the ageist and sexist trope of the embittered older woman, Justine? It's very upsetting to me that you would imply this in the wake of yesterday. And I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it very upsetting to see you say something like this.

We are not a small minority of embittered old women. We are a wide range of women standing up for women and girls on a website for mothers. And, according to the latest polling, only 18% of the population - across all age groups - disagree with us.

"Trans people fall into that category (even if certain activists seem to be more likely to be oppressors than oppressed)"

Are you're saying it's oppressive to give definitions of the word "women"?

Back in 2013 over 58% of Mumsnet users said they were more likely to "consider feminist perspectives" since joining Mumsnet and 57% said that they'd changed an aspect of their relationship with their partner as a result of reading/participating in discussions about feminism and gender issues.

Isn’t that something you should be really proud of rather than shutting us down at the time when we need this space most?

Ah. The young

Couldn't we just add trigger warnings to threads? Then people who may have their feelings impacted by the threads can avoid them and people who want to discuss can do so freely? (this might be a commercially daft response, feel free to explain it to me, but seems like a solution that works for everyone).

Justine, are you aware of how much women are bullied and cowed and silenced by these people, including the self important young adults you are courting, practically everywhere else on the internet?

But 85% also said that using MN helps them have a better understanding of other people's lives and choice. That's the thing we're trying to preserve here.

How does that work if women are prevented from speaking frankly about our lives because of excessive censorship?

I’m assuming MNHQ have been threatened legally or financially over the past few months. There is a feeling of utter panic from them.

Come on now. You know and we know they are actually the most litigious and authoritarian in the world.

Most oppreseed, seriously?

This is why MPs, business and public servants are scared too.

@WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice

Oh my giddy aunt.

They are the most oppressedest group in the world unlike us lucky women have nothing to complain about.

Come on now. You know and we know they are actually the most litigious and authoritarian in the world.

Let's be honest so we can call it a day.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

Justine, are you aware of how much women are bullied and cowed and silenced by these people, including the self important young adults you are courting, practically everywhere else on the internet?
Yes! What about Emmagate? A young self-important woman who decided to scare the crap out of us?

Also, since it’s WOMEN talking to each other who have made this site the huge success it’s become, don’t you think you owe them something? Loyalty? A duty of care? Pp have talked about other feminist sites closing as they were taken over by TRAs, is that what you want to happen to MN? And where do you see this ending...?

Most oppressed? Come on. Everyone is running scared of offending them. Including MN.
Misogyny is the oldest hate crime.

If anyone is "alienated" by women stating an irrefutable biological fact then, really, that is their fucking problem.

And I would urge those who get bad feelz about it to open a basic biology text book and educate themselves.

I cannot believe I am having to state that;
Women are human adult females.
TRANSWOMEN ARE NOT WOMEN

Thank you.

I await my deletion.

For stating the simple, irrefutable, truth.

I would say that it is important for women to talk about their biology openly and without shame or fear of offence. Are we supposed to go back to the days of our mothers and grandmothers where women’s biology was taboo and offensive?

Justine, are you really suggesting that the women of MN stop talking about their periods, PCOS, miscarriages, pregnancies, menopause, peri-menopause, infertility, breast cancers, cervical smears etc? Surely it is the thin end of the wedge to stop women owning and discussing how they are women.

Would you allow people who are offended by the above topics to bully you into silencing them?

Do you agree with Cancer Research changing their wording to ‘anyone with a cervix’? Can’t you see how regressive this narrative is?

Oh dear Justine, you've just made things a "zillion times" worse with your explanations.

@JustineMumsnet I feel the balance is skewed here because you note that not everyone agrees with the GC stance presented in the Spartacus threads and you need to honour that. However, our POV is that we need to gather our voices en masse, because those people who disagree are the ones who have the ear of media, government and commerce. We feel invisible.

Thank you, Justine. I know this is a hard time for MN.

Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

The thing is, we get exhausted by the debate. We are being gaslit, belittled and falsely accused of bigotry. Our mental health suffers. Why can't we come together on a thread to echo each other in solidarity? Is our health not just as important as theirs?

Yesterday's thread was massively important to me. I was feeling low, worried and lonely as my views are not shared (out loud) by many in my real-life network. My thoughts became darker at first as I tried to process the bizarre moderation. Then, as more and more of us responded, I felt incredibly uplifted. Why should we not have a resting place to pause, cheer each other up and gather our strength? We need and deserve the same kind of solace and shared meaning available to MNers on other topics. Let's not pretend there are no rallies elsewhere here.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans it my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

I think you are talking about people with gender dysphoria. "Trans person" is a much wider term. The Stonewall definition:

An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, cross dresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, two-spirit, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.

Thank you Justine. Thanks also for the debate platform. I'm sure you must wake up every day now and think 'what fresh hell is this'. Anyway I started the thread and it was not to be hostile - it was to bring women together in strength and community at a time of great shock and upset. There'll be so many more of these moments I'm sure - and it feels like double standards to ban our communal response when people are allowed to come and actively deliberately be hostile to us, and we are just supposed to turn the other cheek. We weren't being deliberately hostile. It was for us. I agree with the others. People can look away. It was just for us. We just needed a moment away from being told our existence is 'a subject of debate'.

Anyway. Can you ask Penny if all her advisers are transadvocates? Does she have any (actual) feminist advisers at all? And warn her that if she does come she'll be asked what the 'Women' in her job title means ! (It's the new biscuit question)

Thanks for responding Justine.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans it my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

What does 'trans' even mean? Do you mean having body dysphoria? Being a crossdresser? Identifing as non-binary?

The only one of those I think would be hard would be the dysphoria - but why does that psychological disorder get all your sympathy? There are people with all sorts of disabilities and disorders on MN but we don't try to bend reality for them. Why don't you police the dieting threads because they could be problematic for people with anorexia?

Ps am also aware that we are anonymous and you are not.

Sorry that was to Justine. Bold fail

Yes the cross-dressers lives generally don't seem to be that hard - more their partner's (usually WOMEN) and families lives (see transwidows threads).