Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

Is this all meant to lull a different audience into looking the other way or do you actually mean that. It's really horrific. I mean, that's a horrific thing to say.

You have to bring the bigger picture.

Probably in social privilege terms you, Justine are on a par will Pip/Pippa Bunce who is married, got a great job at Credit Suisse and even gets to use both the women and mens facilities at work, gets awarded for being both inspirational as a 'woman' and as LGBT, none of the women at CS can object or do anything about it if they feel humiliated.

I don't think Pip/pa has it particularly hard getting all those special privileges of being male, female and trans.

That's without comparing other transpeople with women in different degrees of social privilege.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans it my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

You do realise thats not the case for every women and girl in the country, don't you?

And women and girls not only face sexism, but misogyny too.

Justine, have you read this thread about the impact of all this on the mental health of your users?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3296831-Can-we-talk-about-the-mental-impact-of-being-told-the-definition-of-woman-is-changing

Will let everyone know as and when PM meeting occurs.

I hope you will invite users along, not just staff.

Having decided that transwomen are females, with legal documents to reflect they are females, despite their fully intact penis and balls, the only thing left for the government to decide is what to call the half of the population that are neither males nor trans, and whether or not those people are entitled to any rights at all.

There is nothing more self destructive that a government can do than mandate belief. Not only do they have to find a way to enforce the signaling of submission to the belief by the populace but they then have to punish the non believers.

pearlkent yes, I forgot menopause in my list too - you are right, although one finds occasional research about a so-called male menopause.

But generally speaking, I am done here.

Justine, I just wanted to say thank you for seeing that this is important and continuing to host the debate. I was a stroppy caaahh on yesterday's thread (not without provocation), but I understand you don't have to do this and sometimes you must wonder why the hell you're bothering.

So thank you. You are doing something important and good.

@UglyCathKidsonBag that sounds probable now that you put it that way.

@JustineMumsnet can you confirm or deny? If so what can we do to help?

I wonder if Netmums are being silenced in this way, don’t think some of those no nonsense working class women will buy into this post modernist bullshit!

If anyone is "alienated" by women stating an irrefutable biological fact then, really, that is their fucking problem.

This.

I hope you will invite users along, not just staff.

Don't bother asking me, I am not prepared to waste my health being so very privileged compared to the most oppressed ever trans people who are far more important to keep happy.

My feelings don't matter.

I think netmums bought the kool aid early on. They are very strict there I was told.

But generally speaking, I am done here.

I think I am done too, I don't matter clearly.

If we’re talking alienation, I was pretty alienated when people posted horrible, ignorant comments about children like my son. MN took no action. Why did my alienation matter less than that of the trans activists and their dim witted juvenile followers?
Don’t bother, I know the answer

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

What a way to completely dismiss the experiences of all the women on this forum in one simple sentence.

I'm not sure that anything Justine has said changes much to be honest. Yes she's put herself forward to discuss yesterday's thread but nothing much different is actually being said.

Am sat here scratching my ovaries whilst processing it all.

It's completely bizarre to me that Justine believes her life would have been a zillion times harder if she were trans.

It's all about the mighty Y

Jesus suffering fuck....

The thing is, no one is saying that trans people always have it easy are they? Just that transwomen are not women! It's not a competition as to who is most oppressed.

Women's issues and trans issues are different. They have different roots and need different solutions. Trans people appropriating the oppression of women and stopping women talking about that oppression is what the problem is here.

Because most of those young people haven’t really had a run in with biology yet.

This is true. But both sets of polling carried out are consistent across all age groups. It's just not true, what Justine said. What is true is that the only political notice taken of young adult voices is drawn from the student politics/highly privileged environment and that does have a strong postmodern (and thus pro-transactivism) slant.

Student politics does not represent the majority voice of young people. My two kids and all their friends are tribally hostile - because that is true about the young: they do love their tribes - to this noisy tribe. When I told them we feminists have taken to calling them "blue hairs" they all fell about laughing and stole it as a favoured term!

I think this age thing is just one more sexist trope. Like all the others.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

And so speaks the voice of privilege throwing others under the bus that it rides on to further privilege. This is an extraordinary sentence of ignorance and arrogance which shows a breathtaking lack of understanding of the complex issues and the multifacets of the debate. For absolute shame.

The notion that the most important thing is that women are nice and don't insult anyone when they are talking about politics is such a deeply engrained tool to oppress women and here is being enforced by mumsnet.

Mumsnet would have shut down the Suffragettes without the slightest doubt.

That's me done with Mumsnet. Good luck getting it back on track so it focuses on prams and what sparkly pink shoes to buy.

Thanks Justine.

The conflation of gender and sex is an enormous, flashing, red-flag threat to women's protections and dignity. Please make sure that Penny Morduant understands this.

The conflation of gender and sex is an enormous, flashing, red-flag threat to women's protections and dignity

Oh yes, this this this.

one of the reasons no transwoman will explain what they 'feel like' when they feel like a woman is that all to often the answer is enormously sexist.

They like pretty floaty clothes
They like makeup
They like to be sexually submissive

The idea that any of these things makes you a woman is grossly offensive and categorically should not be acknowledged in law.

A clear, concise, non circular definition of 'woman' and 'man' would be a very good start to any legislation.

I honestly DON'T think life is a zillion times harder to be trans. At least, if one is in possession of a Y chromosome.
I can list half a dozen trans people who are feted, positioned on panels, consulted with by politicians and decision makers, FUNDED HEAVILY, platformed, published, celebrated and featured in magazines, documentaried and newspapers. They are able to obtain NHS treatments that even female cancer survivors cannot.

They all have that Y chromosome.

And the women clamoring to debate them, bring wit, Intelligence, skill, critical thinking, academic expertise.
And are ignored and vilified.

I don't envy people who identify as trans.
But neither do I accept it as a tougher life than those of us who are female.

It is not harder to be a male who identifies as female, than it is to be literally, biologically, physically, anatomically, immutably female.

Not in this country, and not anywhere.