Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

Sorry forgot photo.

Justine, I know you have an incredibly busy life, as many of us do here.

I wondered if you had a few minutes to watch something. It's a trans advisor telling a room full of healthcare professionals the definition of 'trans'.

It was something, along with many other things recently, that really changed my view of what I thought I was defending when I, like you, used to talk of that 'hard life'.

I'm sure you don't have time to watch the whole thing, though it's an interesting watch, but if you watch from about 4.08 it's only a minute or two of your time:-

The boundaries of the definition have slipped.

Apologies if you already are aware of this, and you're clued up and A-OK with including 'men with sexual fetishes' as having a zillion times harder lives than most. Tara's definition, not mine.

Mumsnet has been instrumental for me and others over the years in helping us to recognise the 'red flags' of potential abuse. This is a line of red bunting.

NB: This does not mean I don't accept that there are some people who feel incredibly uncomfortable with the bodies they were born with. I empathise with their pain. (Sadly for them, still doesn't mean they can change their actual sex).

NB 2!: It's the very disturbing rise in the % of teenage girls 'identifying' out of puberty as trans that also concerns me. Having seen trends in anorexia, then self-harm, in the same group over my lifetime, the similarities are stark. The prevailing trans ideology right now is not helping these girls.

Phillip/Pips is a senior figure in the banking industry. I'd like to know in which way he is oppressed too. He identifies as genderfluid. Uses women's toilets when identifying as a woman. Men's when not. Has a collection of clothes a female head of business would never be able to wear.

‘I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans my life would have been about a zillion times harder.’

How can a male who thinks he is a woman have a harder life than an actual woman? Surely the fact he faces discrimination at all is due to the fact that males are treating him like a non-conforming male, i.e. female like. So logically it is females that are hated, and non-conforming males only face discrimination because females are so despised by men in the first place.

I am a lesbian woman, who does not conform to ‘feminine’ stereotypes, the only difference between me and a woman who identifies as ‘transman’ ‘nonbinary’ etc, is that is that I do not identify as trans, so how does said woman have a harder time?

If you are referring to dysphoria many girls have body dysphoria, how is it different if someone says they are trans, why is their dysphoria somehow worse?

Women face many firms of abuse, oppression and discrimination due to our sex that no male person will have to face surely you can see this. Many heterosexual men who have AGP identify as women, how anyone can seriously claim that heterosexual males who identify as ‘lesbian women’ have a harder life than actual women just beggars belief to be honest.

Yeah....
I think Im done here
12 years of help and tears and laughter.
All sacrificed to the alter of the mighty TRAs...

Apologies if you already are aware of this, and you're clued up and A-OK with including 'men with sexual fetishes' as having a zillion times harder lives than most. Tara's definition, not mine.

And Stonewall's, as I posted below.

Tara would probably say that having a mastectomy is a zillion times harder if you're trans too. And pretty much does at the end of that video.

"But equally denying trans women are women is bad for their mental health, for almost exactly the same reasons. How should that be balanced?"

I'm sorry if they are upset by the fact that they are men, but I cannot and I will not lie, I am not responsible for their mental health. I don't even understand how people can lie to themselves.

How many transwomen that are upset by posts on here, actually use the FWR board for genuine reasons?

@justinemumsnet

Are you honestly saying that Trans
People are more oppressed than females?

Thanks Eresh, that end bit always gets me, but I focused on the definition this time as I hoped Justine may have the time to watch a teeny bit of it. I always find it useful to see Stonewall's definition spoken out loud - it comes off the page and into the real world.

Always also gets me that, at the end of that session, the room is speechless questionless.

I always find it useful to see Stonewall's definition spoken out loud - it comes off the page and into the real world.

Indeed. When normally we just put up with the evidence of it all over social media and everyone pretends it's not a thing.

Yeps I guess the kids Justine speaks to are not like me or my friends

Not rich not educated. Not in London. I don’t have the tertiary education

I just felt like that was a slap in my face

Do u rember when the woman talking about the group she ran for ppl like me in deptford. Was it and was taken over by students from goldsmiths and they totally kille it

Just cos u mix in educated circles and do the chit chat with them doesn’t make it true how all young ppl feel

Am so lucky to meet theses great women and I am passing it on to all I know and not one person has said I disagree

Thank u great women 🍰🍺🍺🍺🍺

But equally denying trans women are women is bad for their mental health, for almost exactly the same reasons. How should that be balanced?

There are lots of facts that upset people.

It seems however that the gender critical view of biology can be expressed but opposing views are moderated. That doesn't feel right

Well the simple fact is that the 'gender critical' view of biology is the true factual view, so whether it 'feels right' to you or not, it is right.

A lot of the biological claims by gender critical feminists are offensive to trans and intersex women (like myself) and I would like to see more of them deleted.

They aren't 'claims'. It's unfortunate you are offended by biological facts. You however frequently post genuinely offensive views.

But equally denying trans women are women is bad for their mental health, for almost exactly the same reasons. How should that be balanced?

They aren't women. This is feminism and women's rights. If you don't like to read what women think about having their identities appropriated, choose a more suitable forum. You don't get to tell women what to think or how to speak.

The good stuff:

There aren't many CEOs who'd actually have the ovaries of steel to engage directly with their customer base over something like that, so thank you for that.

You are actually letting us debate (albeit with talk guidelines which in places are so tight as to hamstring genuine debate, and occasionally applied so arbitrarily that no-one quite knows where they stand).

The bad points:

You're applying totally different standards to GC feminists from those applied elsewhere on the board. We are being held to much higher standards than threads on, say, racism or disablism. Meanwhile it can feel like the goady fuckers are being left to run riot with impunity (as they do on threads about racism too - obviously they wouldn't get away with blatant racism, but there's a hell of a lot of dog-whistly, under-the-radar racism that people do get away with).

The "zillion times worse" comment is terrible. I am sure that those with gender dysphoria suffer terribly. But so too do many women, on account of their biological sex. Those who are raped. Those who are subject to FGM. Those whose healthcare during childbirth falls woefully short of adequate standards due to insitutional sexism in the medical profession. The women in domestic violence shelters who are about to lose their housing benefit. The women screwed over by universal credit, or PIP, or doing double shifts as mothers and carers for their elderly relative, while holding down a full-time job on minimum wage. The women still being denied abortion in Northern Ireland. I'm not a big fan of "oppression Top Trumps", but if you insist we play... well, I'm just not seeing a factor of a zillion here.

This is gynophobia and misogyny at work.

I wish someone would use that “zillion times more oppressed” quote in an AIBU title.

minority groups which have suffered considerable oppression/discrimination. Trans people fall into that category

1/ Paris Lees graced the cover of Vogue as a 'new suffragette'.
Would a woman have this chance if she'd previously been a prostitute who had robbed a punter so violently that she'd earned a 2-year sentence?

2/ Karen Jones was invited to speak to the House of Lords by Lord Patel.
Would a regular male who had killed his lover (manslaughter) & attempted to rape a woman be invited to address their lordships on the plight of violent sexual predators?

3/ Lily Madigan gets glowing press coverage & is interviewed by Channel 4's Cathy Newman.
Has any female Constituency Labour Party Woman's Officer received anything like this adulation?

twitter.com/MrHenryWimbush/status/995039879368265728

Suffragette my arse. The mirror opposite. Fuck Vogue and the rest of the media for trolling women.

Yeps I guess the kids Justine speaks to are not like me or my friends

Not rich not educated. Not in London. I don’t have the tertiary education

Yeah but if you are not rich or educated, advertisers aren't really that arsed about you.

How can a male who thinks he is a woman have a harder life than an actual woman? Surely the fact he faces discrimination at all is due to the fact that males are treating him like a non-conforming male, i.e. female like. So logically it is females that are hated, and non-conforming males only face discrimination because females are so despised by men in the first place.

Yes, this is very true. It all comes back to hatred of women.

Yeps but we spend money on stuff

Stud we see recommend here. Then we pass i5 on

No stud. Ffs. Stuff

As an aside thanks to all you brilliant strong women who have posted on this thread, you give me strength!

💜👏💪🏼💋

Hi Justine
Firstly, thank you. The importance of Mumsnet's stand really can't be underestimated.

I think the key issue is that the dynamics of power are not being fully recognised.

Women posting here do not have access to the legal, political, media, financial or social media power of TRAs. Many have tried to speak with MPs and either not being able to or brushed away (MPs have been briefed/ lobbied by GIRES, Stonewall, Pink News, Mermaids, Amnesty etc).

The narrative has been constructed (by those who have power) that those with concerns are 'so called feminists' transphobic, 'anti-trans' & bigots at best, Nazis akin to the KKK at worst.
These accusations sit unchallenged.

There is also an issue of power here on this board. There are some posters who come to deliberately derail and goad. Sometimes they last less than 24 hours, sometimes they stay for weeks. Not to debate, but to control. Its not civil. (Im not going to mention how posts here are used elsewhere). When the worst of their comments are deleted this benefits only them. The opinions that are deleted such as the appropriation of hysterectomies, infertility are not uncommon. If when we identify this and challenge it the comment is deleted it is us who are disempowered. I was personally involved here & an important opportunity to stand up for women who have had hystectomies, gyny cancer and / or are childless was lost. It was pretty upsetting. There are many women in similar circumstances to mine that are MN users too.

Derailing has happened on a thread here discussing concerns for a schoolgirl in America wanting to assert her right to privacy, homeless women (one of whom was murdered) and female prisoners. Serious concerns about vulnerable people which if derailed elsewhere on Mumsnet would likely get short shrift.

It has also happened on two threads which I started about the successful mass targetting of Lisa Muggeridge. Her voice is very important. I saw how this happened on Twitter and also read about the massive impact this has had on her and her daughter's life. I would urge you to read the whole thread, especially her own comments added yesterday here. I dont know if you are able to access the zapped first thread, if you are you will see how it was derailed. The context is really important and exemplifies the issue of power; who has it and how it is used / abused.

Finally, I would ask you to consider that it may be that it is the new guidelines which have been 'weaponised' by some and that threads such as the one in question are a response to women feeling disempowered.

Do u rember when the woman talking about the group she ran for ppl like me in deptford. Was it and was taken over by students from goldsmiths and they totally kille it

I remember. I won't ever forget. I am sick of the least powerful voices being told to shut up even if they manage to get the barest whisper through.

Good for you, Dog. I think you're fab.