MNHQ I hope you know there are some of us who fully agree with your new rules(249 Posts)
HQ, I think your decision about terms to ban is completely appropriate and very much needed. I believe in referring to a person how that person wants to be referred, and respecting that choice. And I think if we cut our the false equivalencies and deliberate obtuseness, we can all understand the spirit of what you are trying to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for you to draft a policy and perhaps it may need some tweaking or explaining over time, but I think drawing some boundaries to ensure respectful dialogue is absolutely the right call.
I just worry that a lot of voices like mine aren’t heard on here because they just don’t have the time or energy for a fight. The “gender critical” crowd post so often about the same things over and over again that it may seem like they represent most or all of MN. But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression.
I get enough of that from my toddlers .
No doubt they will be here momentarily to start shouting me down, but I was hoping maybe the rest of us could have ONE thread to let HQ know where we stand without being drowned out by posters who are louder and more determined, but perhaps not larger in number, than everyone else.
I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others. Based on the tone of the discourse thus far I don’t have high hopes, but it would certainly make me respect them more if they would show some consideration to the rest of us.
Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to let this happen.
The ‘usual feminist board posters’? Damn those women with their opinions.
Sigh. That happened even faster than I expected.
I’m a woman too, and I’m neither stupid nor brainwashed by men. I just think it’s ok for us to disagree without being insulting or drowning each other out. I’m sorry so many people disagree. Guess this thread was just a pipe dream.
So you want posters who disagree with you not to post so that you can prove how many posters agree with you? Talk about a rigged result
I'm all in favour of respectful debate, but the new rules make that impossible, because the words needed to express and discuss gender critical ideas are banned.
A challenge for you OP: express the idea that a specific person who is born a man and who retains male genitalia does not belong in a female-only space (even if they feel they deserve to) without contravening the new talk guidelines.
Whatever your opinion on the guidelines (and I'm pretty much OK with them- like all people there are some bits I'm less keen on than others, but overall I think it's a clear attempt to be fair and even handed) I just think it's good to have some. Where there are clear expectations set out you can make a choice whether to meet them or not and you can't say you don't know what the consequences may be. It's good to have that understanding of what mnhq will and will not be ok with.
'Keep quiet' you say.
I've never heard a GC poster suggest that.
I've seen a lot of encouragement to non-GC posters to keep on debating, actually. Because their voices & views are worth debating.
Only one side of this discussion is seeking to silence women's voices.
I just wanted to agreewith you real Estate, mumsnet is becoming an oppressive environment and some posters truly believed they could get away with anything on the feminism board. I am a proud feminist and refuse to allow my opinion to be drowned out by 'gender critical' women who can't even even bring their self to use another person's chosen name
I don’t agree with MNHQ saying we have a NATAL sex because it implies we can have other sexes that aren’t natal!
If the gender critical voices were 'drowning anybody out' we wouldn't be in this situation. We have to keep debating because women are being trampled on and it doesn't help when well-meaning pacifists adopt the moral high ground and tell us to be quiet. I'm not one of the frequent posters you appear to be offended by. I try to be polite and inclusive and not be gratuitously hurtful. I don't hurl insults and call you stupid. However I will not call someone who was born male 'woman'. It's not true. It's not fair to our kids to let them believe it. We won't stop telling the truth. I think you underestimate the number of people who share my views. We have just been quiet so far. So sorry I didn't let you just have your rubbing it in thread - we won't be told where and when our views are allowed any more.
I never post about the topic, but this thread has peeved me enough to do so. I’m massively gender critical and I’m grateful to MN posters for that shift — I used to desperately want to be so right-on and inclusive (and still do — my belief that everyone should be free to live, dress, act and be named exactly as they wish has not changed — however, MN posters helped me see that this should not be at the expense of women, or lead to the erasure of women as a sex class).
And the natal sex thing is utterly barmy. Not least because many of us posting on mumsnet are intimately familiar with the circumstances under which adult female humans (women) physically give birth to babies who are in possession of either a penis or a vagina in all but a tiny amount of cases.
@NewbieSpartacus My thoughts exactly!!
If the gender critical voices were 'drowning anybody out' we wouldn't be in this situation
Quite. The new policy is proof that women have every reason to be fearful for their rights. Women can only use language according to the demands of a tiny group of male people. Which group are being drowned out? Which group are having their conversations curtailed?
MN is supporting the silencing of women. We have every right to be angry and afraid.
Sigh. Oh good, someone else telling me to be quiet.
Calm down, dear No, I wont.
I agree OP.
It's pretty easy to avoid calling trans women men. It's pretty low of them, but let them go low, we'll go high.
If you believe something, really believe it heart and soul, then it doesn’t matter how many posts there are saying the opposite. You can write your post and re-read it and it’s there, showing what you thought and felt. The other posts can’t change that. But if somebody says you can’t say that, then what you think and feel can’t be expressed, can’t be there for you to read and re read. You have been silenced.
In the context of the fight for women’s liberation being silenced is a potent threat. We have to understand that nothing can be taken for granted. Legal rights, reproductive autonomy, prioritising women’s health issues, action against sexual violence - in our world none of these are universal. All must be protected. And that’s why women only space is vital. That’s why we must recognise that there are issues which only relate to women born women. A man cannot become a woman.
I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others
Yeah right. You need to get yourself a whole new website.
a long time MNer who never posted on the feminism boards. HTH.
You don't get to control who does or doesn't post on any particular thread. I feel sad that mn felt they had no option but to give in but nor do I blame them. I suspect they've been under quite a lot of pressure.
At the end of the day the voices of women are being controlled by men. How do I know this? Because if it were women complaining, nobody would be listening.
I don't post on the feminist boards but I mostly agree with them.
You can't tell me where to post.
I don't usually post on this and related topics, but must say that MN, you will surely be losing some valuable posters who will just go elsewhere to have a valid debate.
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