MNHQ I hope you know there are some of us who fully agree with your new rules

[RealEstateNovelist]

HQ, I think your decision about terms to ban is completely appropriate and very much needed. I believe in referring to a person how that person wants to be referred, and respecting that choice. And I think if we cut our the false equivalencies and deliberate obtuseness, we can all understand the spirit of what you are trying to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for you to draft a policy and perhaps it may need some tweaking or explaining over time, but I think drawing some boundaries to ensure respectful dialogue is absolutely the right call.

I just worry that a lot of voices like mine aren’t heard on here because they just don’t have the time or energy for a fight. The “gender critical” crowd post so often about the same things over and over again that it may seem like they represent most or all of MN. But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression. I get enough of that from my toddlers .

No doubt they will be here momentarily to start shouting me down, but I was hoping maybe the rest of us could have ONE thread to let HQ know where we stand without being drowned out by posters who are louder and more determined, but perhaps not larger in number, than everyone else.

I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others. Based on the tone of the discourse thus far I don’t have high hopes, but it would certainly make me respect them more if they would show some consideration to the rest of us.

Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to let this happen.

echt , it’s a good idea to read the other responses, including mine, before you start objecting.

soapboxqueen , thanks for your polite post. The message, though, is rather insulting. If someone disagrees with you and your only response is that the person “just doesn’t understand,” that shuts down any reasoned debate. Good on you for shifting your views, but I can assure you that 1) I have read a great deal about this issue, both on and off MN, and discussed it at length with both trans and non-trans individuals, and 2) I am intelligent enough to understand your point. Also, if it matters, I am a successful (if I do say so myself :) solicitor with almost two decades of experience parsing arguments and logic. Trust me, there’s no lack of comprehension here. There is room for valid opinions that differ from yours. Most controversial issues are nuanced, but if you insist on oversimplifying it into a black and white question, that suggests that possibly you are the one who doesn’t understand. Most adults understand that it’s folly to to present your opinion as absolute fact. And no matter how you frame it, your opinion is not “reality” or “fact.” There’s a huge gray area that bears discussion — no matter what I think about the difference between sex and gender, I maintain that it’s disrespectful to refuse to call someone by their chosen name and pronoun. I am not threatened by that. There is such a wide spectrum of the trans experience so I don’t believe in a bright line rule, but in most cases these are just regular people trying to live their lives in a way that feels true for them, and they don’t deserve to be outed or belittled for semantic or political reasons.

Gack, there goes another 15 minuyes.

'there's a huge grey area that bears discussion'

This used to be a good place to actually have that discussion. The amount of self-censorship required to express a simple statement without getting deleted does not facilitate that discussion at all.

Real I'm not sure which bit of my post you have been reading but at no point did I question your intelligence or anything about you as a person. Nor did I question those things about anybody else.

I pointed out, that at present, we have circle squaring situation. Either a persons sex, their biological body, is an identifiable thing and everything after that is gender which is a social construct that shouldn't be pushed onto anybody.
....
Or
....
A persons biological sex is irrelevant and what really matters is an inner sense of gender.

The first option doesn't work for transgender people as then they can never be what they believe themselves to be.

The second option doesn't really work for women as it implies our sexed bodies are not the reason women have been historically oppressed. That if we just declare ourselves not of the 'female gender identity' we can solve most of our problems.

Lots of people are trying to straddle the two positions and I don't think it is possible.

Being polite to people we meet is not what this is about. Most of us would do that anyway. It's about when politeness has to end otherwise rights and protections get removed.

@ChardonnaysPrettySister There is a very interesting article in the Times Magazine today
@echt Could you post a link?

Happy to oblige:

Interview with Jordan Deschamps-Braly, transgender women’s favourite surgeon:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/interview-with-jordan-deschamps-braly-transgender-womens-favourite-surgeon-590btqcxp?shareToken=394f3868a38fd13d66710fa4f2097a3d

Thanks, Shots!

I don't really post on the feminist boards and I'm generally very left wing but I am very concerned that the trans agenda is being put ahead of protecting the rights of women...

MN always used to delete for misgendering. Then there was the original Spartacus and posters got their own way with so many things, took the piss and pushed over and over the line so MN had to make this statement.

And posters are still going to push over and over the line. And nothing much seems to be changing except more complaining, hostility and division.

Wish there was a like button, NoIWont.

Ive posted it before but i had no real problem with the new guidelines

Im totally confused by the amendments

And i know this will get ignored because i think I probably come under the 'usual feminist board poster'

MN always used to delete for misgendering. Then there was the original Spartacus and posters got their own way with so many things,

What things? MN have never stopped deleting for misgendering. This latest debacle is mostly about acronyms. And if feminists have got a bit more hard line on using the word woman to refer to a gender reassigned male, then that is entirely the fault of the TRAs trashing women's reasonable boundaries.

natural

Well i thought they deleted for misgendering as well...

Thanks OP. I too am glad MN finally took a stand against the transphobic comments and general nastiness towards trans people. If you think that doesn't happen just look at the amount of comments already removed by MN on this thread.

I am all for people being allowed to argue their views and opinions but having to degrade, mock and insult an entire group of people just to get your point across really is just vile.

I hope that in the future there will be parents of trans children who feel safe and welcome enough to post on here for help and advice. It is a parenting forum after all, and not a website for people to gang up on 1 type of person like playground bullies.

parents of trans children who feel safe and welcome enough to post on here for help

There are parents who feel welcome enough to post

They are on the FWR board

I don't recognise the forum some of you are describing - I don't insult, mock and degrade. I AM that parent of a trans kid that came here for help so it's offensive to me that we're accused of being nasty to trans people. These references to being polite to your friends and using their preferred names and pronouns are spectacularly misleading and irrelevant. Of course we are all polite and nice to people - within reason. The problem is it doesn't stop at preferred pronoun - that pronoun then confers the right to access sex segregated facilities. So please, come back and discuss it. Don't just tell me the moral choice is to be polite: give me your view on male bodied people winning girls' races. Explain why a teen male bodied person can speak for women. Tell me how you know -truly know - that my kid won't be harmed by hormones. I am not in the business of degrading anyone but TAs are degrading us by taking our freedoms. By which I mean, access to life and spaces and medical testing/treatment that women have fought for. For many women, degrading means having a trans woman perform a smear/ share a prison cell/ DV shelter/ changing room. These women will stop accessing spaces where they are not allowed dignity, privacy and a feeling of safety.

And while I'm here I just want to say how grateful I am that I found support here when I needed it. All the feminist board members like Datun, Rufus, Prawn and everyone else saved my sanity.

Oh thank you newbie thats a really lovely thing to say

Oh is it bad that i want to yell

SEE!!! SEE!!!

Yes, Rufus, be very ashamed.

Oh god i knew it....

What newbie said.

” I won’t get into specifics but I have to say my opposition has become much stronger as a result of the nastiness and immaturity of many of the GC threads“

What a ridiculous reason to solidify any argument.

Base your opinions on research, on facts. Not on your emotional reaction to other people’s emotional reactions to other people’s experience ffs.

NewbieSpartacus - what incredibly eloquent posts. I hope the OP and others take the time to respond to your questions.

I’m not a regular poster but am grateful to the usual FWR posters for their persistence and for making the arguments clear. I don’t recall having seen any transphobia in the threads I’ve read and am disappointed in MM for curtailing women’s free speech in this way. As another poster pointed out, blasphemy laws that prevent us debating religion are a terrible idea (thank god we don’t live in Saudi). Rules that prevent reasoned debate on women’s rights fall into the same camp imo.

echt , it’s a good idea to read the other responses, including mine, before you start objecting I objected to the presumptuous nature of your thread title.

The people spouting crap about FWR? You do realise that any poster can use the AS function, I take it?

Thanks for that, NewbieSpartacus. So glad to have been of help.