MNHQ I hope you know there are some of us who fully agree with your new rules

[RealEstateNovelist]

HQ, I think your decision about terms to ban is completely appropriate and very much needed. I believe in referring to a person how that person wants to be referred, and respecting that choice. And I think if we cut our the false equivalencies and deliberate obtuseness, we can all understand the spirit of what you are trying to do. I’m sure it wasn’t easy for you to draft a policy and perhaps it may need some tweaking or explaining over time, but I think drawing some boundaries to ensure respectful dialogue is absolutely the right call.

I just worry that a lot of voices like mine aren’t heard on here because they just don’t have the time or energy for a fight. The “gender critical” crowd post so often about the same things over and over again that it may seem like they represent most or all of MN. But the truth is it’s just not worth arguing with them, as they immediately start hurling insults or acting like everyone who doesn’t agree with them is narrow-minded or stupid. They’re not going to convince me and vice versa and I don’t need to open myself up to derision and aggression. I get enough of that from my toddlers .

No doubt they will be here momentarily to start shouting me down, but I was hoping maybe the rest of us could have ONE thread to let HQ know where we stand without being drowned out by posters who are louder and more determined, but perhaps not larger in number, than everyone else.

I respectfully ask that in this one thread, the usual feminist board posters would keep quiet for a moment to let HQ hear the opinions of some others. Based on the tone of the discourse thus far I don’t have high hopes, but it would certainly make me respect them more if they would show some consideration to the rest of us.

Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to let this happen.

OP I agree completely.

Yes that did happen faster than I anticipated. Craziness.

If you can't talk about a subject clearly, discussing it becomes far more difficult.

datun

I just popped back to reread the first page and a bit

There was a fair bit of polite disagreement (no idea what the deletions were fir)

Quite a bit of agreement

And the vast majority of posteres arent FWR regulars....lots of them said so

But I suppose there is no point saying that there are so many posters who could be considered gender criticical who have different opinions and have always followed even the new guidelines and dont have an issue with the new guidelines

i dont know what people think gender critical means...but there are probably as many meanings as there are posters

Have you pinned up ‘The Rules’ anywhere?

I’ve seen on other threads that transwomen is now a banned word and I’ve no idea why that word is banned.

How do I stop myself unknowingly breaking one of the rules?

Its not banned tiny

Really? There’s a thread saying you have to use ‘trans women’ with a gap...

Surely mumsnet should post The Rules at the top of each thread so we know what we can and can’t say?

tiny

Nah

Some people (not on mn ) have called for transwomen to be used with the gap....cos not having the gap is transphobic

MNHQ said on anither thread and ive no idea which one that this wasnt the case

Oh god sorry

And ive gone off on a little rant on another thread and i cant rember which one, because I completely agree with you that there should be a 'sticky' of the rules at the top of the page

They need to publish The Rules somewhere so we know when we are using hatespeech (because frankly I have no idea anymore)

When transwoman is considered hate speech (by some) then yes i agree it's confusing

People are calling the GC threads nasty and immature.

But the violence at women attending WPUK, the masked men blocking entryways, pushing women around, the bomb threats, theyre all ok are they?

Disagreeing with someone on the internet isnt silencing.

Banning words, attacking people and threatening to bomb womens meetings, is silencing.

OP it is my firmly held belief that the nature of this debate is about boundaries and consent.

If you pursuede women to ‘call this person by the name they want just to be polite and respectful’ you are chipping back at our boundaries, the next step becomes ‘just let them use the toilet they want’ then ‘just let them run in the race they want’ then ‘just let them have sex with you, it’s fine’. (Which is happening now in many lgbt circles so don’t shrug this off as scaremongering it is happening now !)

It is absolutely wrong to push back at women’s boundaries, a woman’s consent must always be upheld. How can we teach girls that it’s ok to say ‘no’ and it’s ok to not let men push them into things they don’t want to do but then say they must let people with penises in spaces they don’t want them in ?

I also want to comment on the current self appointed representatives of trans people -

India Willoughby. Munroe Bergdorf. Lily Madigan. Danielle Muscato. Jane Fae. Tara Wolf.

These people are constantly aggressive to woman who don’t see them as the gender they see themselves- we have seen it for ourselves on tv, on twitter and in articles they have written, by their actions they demonstrate that they have no respect for women’s boundaries, and they have no problem with shouting at, berating, physically intimidating, and beating women into submitting to their demands. Would you want to share your safe spaces with these people? They do not respond well to the word no- what does that say about them?

By contrast: Miranda Yardley. Debbie Hayton. Kristina Harrison. These are self declared men who live as women, they dress as women etc but they have absolute respect for other people’s boundaries- they understand why some women may be uncomfortable about sharing loos/changing rooms/refuges with them, they understand why it is unfair that a person born male competes in female categories in sport. They consistently demonstrate respect for boundaries and consent.

OP what do you think of the behaviour of India Willoughby, Danielle Muscato, Jane Fae and Tara Wolf? Would you want to be alone in a room with any of them ?

I just think - if you are going to have rules which are in addition to the usual expectations around courtesy then you n

Need to tell people

People are calling the GC threads nasty and immature.

But the violence at women attending WPUK, the masked men blocking entryways, pushing women around, the bomb threats, theyre all ok are they?

Both are unacceptable. I have not seen any posts suggesting that the latter is in any way acceptable. Although I have seen many with the gender critical crowd trying to twist words of those that do not share their views. All hate crime is unacceptable, whomever it is aimed at.

Any post in which women are described as or called 'TERF' is condoning violence against women. Even if not explicitly stated. There is a whole exhibition of 'TERF' artifacts in a museum/gallery in california which includes weapons and slogans encouraging violence against women. This is a term that had been used on mumsnet but thankfully now is on the banned list.

I've no idea if discussing how this term is used and the issues with it will be deleted.

Where is the list?

Excellent post ThisisSparta. Especially in light of MoseShrute's subsequent comment.

I get very fed up with people claiming the feminist boards are unfair and vile. But it's a strange human characteristic that people become very curious over those words and go to see for themselves.

And that's all I've ever asked. See for yourself.

Read.

www.mumsnet.com/info/trans-rights-moderation-policy

Thank you for starting this post, OP. You’ve given the silent lurkers the courage to come out and say they support the women who have issues with the attempted silencing of GC women. Probably not what you wanted, but I for one, am delighted to welcome other GC women’s voices.

Any hate crime is unacceptable

So theres no difference between referring to someones legal sex, and having explosives and threatening to plant them at a womens meeting.

Both equal hate crimes, are they?

I cant believe when women are constantly verbally attacked, physically attacked, threatened, theres still those who complain about the womens behaviour.

So it’s no to:
Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’.
Cis
Terf

But ok to:
TRA
Gender Critical Feminist

Although context is key.