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You're white you haven't experienced racism 2 *title amended by MNHQ at OP's request*

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MNHQ have commented on this thread.

PatricksRum Thu 04-Jun-20 18:31:15

I started a thread in the early hours.

I fell asleep blush
I've checked the thread and it's full.

Whilst the thread sadly proves my OP, there were a lot of great posts and understanding by some MNers.

I think this discussion is so important and I'd like to continue.

These photos sum up the ridiculous responses.

Do not tell me I am doing my oppressed race a disservice
Your racial prejudice faced as a white person do not trump the daily racism and fear for our lives

Finally, if your response to this is to explain your tiny grievances of racial prejudices you've faced then you are wholly part of the problem.

The racist behaviours and thoughts by your people is the problem. It is your duty to understand and tackle it. I repeat,* it is not the duty of black people to educate you.*

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Coka Thu 04-Jun-20 18:46:55

A majority of people don't seem to understand (or want to understand) the difference so I don't see this going well. Yanbu though.

testing987654321 Thu 04-Jun-20 18:49:10

I can completely see where you are coming from. The issue with racism in the UK and USA is a structural one. Yes, as a white person I might find myself occasionally in situations where people are prejudiced against me, but I don't worry that I won't be taken seriously in general.

One thing I read which was interesting was a black woman saying she didn't realise she was "black" until she came to the UK from Nigeria (I think). Before then, she was just a person. Once in England she had to prove herself all the time. It's that unthinking racism which pervades our culture that we all need to keep fighting against.

LouMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 04-Jun-20 18:56:46

We're just bobbing on here to let you know that we've edited your thread title as requested, @PatricksRum - let us know if we can do anything else to help.

PatricksRum Thu 04-Jun-20 19:00:17

One thing I read which was interesting was a black woman saying she didn't realise she was "black" until she came to the UK from Nigeria (I think). Before then, she was just a person. Once in England she had to prove herself all the time.

That is so sad. Resonates with me but in the same breath you know you are black from an early age. Your reminded by white racists every day.

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Livingthecovidaloca Thu 04-Jun-20 19:23:19

If I recall correctly that’s something Chimamanda Ngozie Adichie writes about in Americanah.

JoinHandsJoinALoveTrain Thu 04-Jun-20 19:30:10

@PatricksRum People really do not get that it is the everyday and systematic racism people are also campaigning against. I am mixed race, black father I had no contact with and white mother. In my childhood my nickname was Darkie because all my family were white, blonde, blue eyed & when my nan took me on holiday when I was little in the 80s she had people coming up to her asking her if my dad was black.

There is a story on Eastenders now ongoing about stop & searches on BAME & Keegan.

maddening Thu 04-Jun-20 19:39:19

To not have experienced it does not mean that I do not have empathy, do not care or that I am racist, we are on your side x

PatricksRum Thu 04-Jun-20 19:41:54

@JoinHandsJoinALoveTrain

I was thinking of eastenders also. The talk that Keegan demanded Mitch gave to Bailey. Mention the talk to a white person and they think you're referring to the birds and bees.

White people cannot understand the guilt. Demanding I downplay the racism I face everyday by their people in order to stop them becoming defensive.

How can you respond to a thread about the oppression black people face by saying:
^
I am white and have experienced white people making fun of my pale skin (I am too white). People are just vile in general.^ This was from @ukgift2016

Its unbelievable.

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Mintychoc1 Thu 04-Jun-20 19:50:26

OP all discussions about racism are hugely important.
But your threads are not discussions. They’re you telling people what they can and can’t say on the thread regarding their own experiences. And essentially telling white people that no matter what they do or say, they will always be part of the problem.
Of course I’m aware that I’m lucky to have never experienced racism, and of course I educate my children not to be racist. But I can do literally nothing about the fact that I was born white, yet you make me feel I should apologise for it.

RumbaswithPumbaas Thu 04-Jun-20 19:51:08

I have rtft and I found it really illuminating and sad to hear what black people live with in this country and what most white people are oblivious to. I want to listen and understand and would not reduce your experience in any way.

I do think there was a lot of talking across each other on that thread and a lot of differing interpretations of racism.

It does make me wonder if there should be a specific term which narrows down the experience of black people (historical, ongoing, personal and systemic struggles) which can articulate the difference to those who might conflate this specific, lifelong, systemic racism with a one off personal episode that they may have experienced. In a similar way that antisemitism has a more specific understanding, or that misogyny/misandry is different to sexism.

I wonder if BLM is the closest we have to this, although words are always going to fall short of real meaning, I think the negativity/ALM comments reflect the discomfort that white people feel at having inbuilt privilege pointed out.

I do also agree though, that those who have experienced some form of racism/xenophobia, should not be made to feel that their experience is nothing, it is also important to use this as a starting point for empathy and trying to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes.

Sending unmumsnetty hugs OP, hope you’re feeling better today.

Mintychoc1 Thu 04-Jun-20 19:54:13

And referring to “your people”, as if all white people are a single homogeneous group, is pretty offensive.
Vicious white racists might have the same skin colour as me, but they’re not “my people”. They really aren’t.

CommunistLegoBloc Thu 04-Jun-20 19:54:36

A while ago there was a thread on here intended to celebrate the fact that Tesco was selling plasters in various skin tones. Cue a load of white people going 'well when are they going to start making plasters that match my milk bottle legs! Plasters aren't meant to match a skin tone, they're just plaster coloured'. It was embarrassing and infuriating and completely indicative of the kind of general mindset of so many people who use this site.

PatricksRum Thu 04-Jun-20 19:55:04

@maddening Thank you. Like I said in the OP there were quite a few amazing people in the original thread helping our cause.

rosiejaune posted an amazing response.
Biber said As a white woman I accept it is my duty to challenge racism.
CandyLeBonBon was another supporter.
schoolsoutforcovid another great MNer.
NotNowPlzz said ^NotNowPlzz
Anyone coming on here to 'defend' white people and share your stories of racism, you're part of the problem. And the people sharing examples of 'racism' against white people in SA and certain other places is BEYOND a joke. The racial aggression toward whites in those areas is as a result of white atrocities committed there. People of colour in many places are extremely wary of white people, even though there are good white people out there. Just like many women are very wary of men. Because of the terrible history of white atrocity.

What we are witnessing in America is terrible white atrocity now, before our very eyes. This is part of a pattern of white atrocity that has been going on for 400 years.

There is NOT a level playing field. Come and talk about your experiences of racism when you're afraid for your children each time they go out, or you're wary of travelling or relocating because you might be ostracised or even attacked, or you're followed around shops every week, and people constantly expect and communicate you'll amount to nothing because of the colour of your skin. Where you're afraid of the police killing you while you go jogging or sleeping at home or walking home from work.

Yes some white people have unpleasant experiences because of their skin colour. But your whole life is not defined by it, you're not constantly on edge, wondering who will next deny your humanity even though they're smiling in your face today. And even if you're in a country facing racist acts toward you as a white person you know you can go somewhere else where you'll be fine.

OP is showing you a gaping wound and saying she's hurt more than you. You're jumping on and saying BUT I GOT A SCRATCH IN 1992 WHAT ABOUT MEEEEE...

This is not about you. Stop making it about you. Educate yourself on the atrocities of the white race that continue to this day.

This is not a debate. Do not argue OPs semantics. This is not about your feelings. Innocent people are being murdered. Wake up wake up WAKE UP^
KnitFastDieWarm** ^let’s break this down:

racism is systemic; it is to do with the structure of society and the history of colonialism and slavery, therefore it can only exist from the ‘top down’ as it requires those who make the systems (historically and currently, these systems are constructed and controlled by white males); racial prejudice is something any individual of any race can feel or act on; it is of course completely unacceptable, and it may be caused structural racism in some cases, but it’s not the same thing. Acknowledging the difference does not diminish individual instances of anyone of any colour being abused because of their race - it’s all unacceptable. But George Floyd died because of racism, not racial prejudice, and that’s the issue right now. people are hurting, grieving, and afraid. let’s remember that and allow that grief and rage to be expressed.

@PatricksRum and another POC on this thread; i see you, i hear you, i believe you^
mathanxiety also.

I'm appreciative of your support.

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PatricksRum Thu 04-Jun-20 19:57:41

They’re you telling people what they can and can’t say on the thread regarding their own experiences.
Yes, I am. Your experiences don't matter right now. We're talking about your race killing another of our people.
And essentially telling white people that no matter what they do or say, they will always be part of the problem.
Nope, as I've said quite a few times, there were so many great posts and support from non-black posters

@Mintychoc1

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PatricksRum Thu 04-Jun-20 19:58:54

*And referring to “your people”, as if all white people are a single homogeneous group, is pretty offensive.
Vicious white racists might have the same skin colour as me, but they’re not “my people”. They really aren’t.*

Yet, as a black person I am grouped by your race. Our face is abused and killed for being black and your moaning about a group term.
Please.

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PatricksRum Thu 04-Jun-20 20:00:09

A while ago there was a thread on here intended to celebrate the fact that Tesco was selling plasters in various skin tones. Cue a load of white people going 'well when are they going to start making plasters that match my milk bottle legs!

@CommunistLegoBloc Oh my gosh. I bloody remember this thread. I remember exactly.
It's like, as many have said, just let us have this one thing please.

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Changednamesorry Thu 04-Jun-20 20:01:20

You are absolutely spot on in what you say @PatricksRum

I'm white. My son is black.

He's a child and has experienced racism multiple times. I have NEVER and it is striking to see the chasm of difference between how some people react to my (primary age) little boy and how I was and am treated.

You will get a lot of white mothers of white children talking shit though. Par for the course.

I back you up.

Miriel Thu 04-Jun-20 20:03:18

OP, as you've screenshotted me, this is the post of yours that I was writing in response to:

If a black person screams "humans are born with one eye" don't correct. Allow us to grieve. We are trying in any way we can to grieve.

This is ridiculous. You have the right to say whatever you want in your grief. You do not have the right to tell other people they can't correct blatantly incorrect statements. Yes, white people should listen to you and what you have to say. That's important. Telling any person that they have to uncritically accept what they're told is wrong.

Bizarre authoritarian statements have no place in liberation movements. I'm not going to change my mind on that.

Abbccc Thu 04-Jun-20 20:03:51

The racist behaviours and thoughts by your people is the problem. It is yourdutyto understand and tackle it. I repeat, it is not the duty of black people to educate you*
That's quite harsh. You're saying that it's white people's duty to understand and do aomething about racism towards black people. But you don't think black people should have to help white people learn about black issues. I can't see how the two go together. Surely it would he better to work together to get it right?

PatricksRum Thu 04-Jun-20 20:03:51

@RumbaswithPumbaas Thank you!
There was a term/ phrase on the OT that was used to describe the racism from white to black.

The thread and points should makr you step back and think. Listen listen listen (as you're doing)

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CommunistLegoBloc Thu 04-Jun-20 20:07:50

Why should black people have to waste their time educating white people not to oppress them?

Mintychoc1 Thu 04-Jun-20 20:09:06

OP you are judging every white person by the behaviour of some white people. That is prejudice.
I won’t engage with you any more as your arguments are crass and clouded by fury. You have every right to be furious, but you are directing it at the wrong people.
Mumsnet is about sharing experiences, yet you say that other posters’ experiences “don’t matter”.

AmericanAdventure Thu 04-Jun-20 20:11:52

Someone above posted this....

When they are actually endengered due to this, there's a risk to health, life, constant scrutiny from people in position of power and they aren't even safe from police misjustice in their own home, sleeping in their beds..

As a white woman, I feel and experience this. As a black woman, I can only try to imagine how much MORE you feel and experience it. And I it is almost impossible for me to imagine the fear of living as a poor, black woman in the US.

I think our layers of identity makes it difficult for people to separate racism and other forms of oppression. Previous posters have talked about experiences with BAME men who have attacked them, but this to me is racial prejudice (like you said) but mixed with a massive dollop of misogyny and misogyny is the oppressive force, I think.

I grew up in an area of high deprivation with no black community. What local people felt was an oppression by a ruling class. Poor people were victimised, denied access to educational resources, employment, unfairly targeted by the police. Not because of skin colour, but because of class. This isn't another "but I've experienced oppression too" post. Instead I'm asking all of those who have experienced oppression of any kind, misogyny/sexism, class oppression, homophobia, anti-semitism, anti-Roma, and anti-Irish to stand with black people. This is not a competition. Your experiences should arm you with empathy and that empathy should enable you to feel the justified anger, rage, grief, fear and anxiety that black people face.

I'm sorry Op. I hope that what is happening now goes some way towards making the lives of Black people better.

PatricksRum Thu 04-Jun-20 20:12:35

@Miriel Ah yes it was you who told me I am doing a disservice to my own fight

It is ridiculous that I have to even use that as an analogy to explain to you in simple terms: Shut up and listen.

How you have the audacity to tell black people how to grieve
And how to fight our battle against you.

I'll say it again, if your response to this is to do anything other than listen and support us then you are part of the problem.

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