You're white you haven't experienced racism 2 *title amended by MNHQ at OP's request*

[PatricksRum]

I started a thread in the early hours.

I fell asleep
I've checked the thread and it's full.

Whilst the thread sadly proves my OP, there were a lot of great posts and understanding by some MNers.

I think this discussion is so important and I'd like to continue.

These photos sum up the ridiculous responses.

Do not tell me I am doing my oppressed race a disservice
Your racial prejudice faced as a white person do not trump the daily racism and fear for our lives

Finally, if your response to this is to explain your tiny grievances of racial prejudices you've faced then you are wholly part of the problem.

The racist behaviours and thoughts by your people is the problem. It is your duty to understand and tackle it. I repeat, it is not the duty of black people to educate you.

@Abbccc
You have told a police officer about your sexual assault
And another one
And another one
And your mum
And your DP
Now, your neighbour says "ooh tell me all the details and how I can stay safe and educate my son not to do something like this".
No, you say, eff off and do your own homework and your own reading and educate your own bloody son.
Are you BU or is your neighbour?

@Changednamesorry
I am sorry to hear about your son. It really saddens me that our youngest members of society will have to be prepped to deal with this.

Whilst learning your ABC's you also need to be taught how to defend yoursekf against racist, all because your black.

It's sadenning.

All of you telling @PatricksRum she's wrong

"That's quite harsh. You're saying that it's white people's duty to understand and do aomething about racism towards black people. But you don't think black people should have to help white people learn about black issues. I can't see how the two go together. Surely it would he better to work together to get it right?"

Oh is it aye? So you reckon rape is a women's problem and women should be responsible for repeatedly explaining to any man who asks whether or not they have committed a bit of sexual assault in the past, why rape is wrong?

You guys ate victim blaming when you say these things. Which is abhorrent in the eyes of many Mumsnetters when its women you sre talking about, bjt fine when its black people.

So. Ib the same way that its not harsh to expect the burden of responsibility for educating why rape is wrong should lie in the hands of men, the burden of explaining and working out why racism is wrong lies ib the hands of white peoole ie the primary (by an enormous margin) aggressors.

What is the point of this thread?

Excellent post AmericanAdventure (imho)

You're saying that it's white people's duty to understand and do aomething about racism towards black people.

Of course it is. You hold the power. You are at the top of the heirachy.
Standing by and watching the racism is not what you should be doing.
That's harsh? Imagine that privileged that your scale of harsh is being told you should fight racism.

Why should black people have to waste their time educating white people not to oppress them?

Amen @CommunistLegoBloc

PatricksRum you said Anyone coming on here to 'defend' white people and share your stories of racism, you're part of the problem. So did you expect white people to lie, or don't the experiences of white people count? If you want a thread about racism towards black people then start one. But don't expect white people to pretend that they don't also suffer racism or deny their experience of it when you have specifically asked if they do!

I am not black so I can't know what it's like. I am from a white ethnic minority. You can't know what that's like. But we can both be tolerant and supportive of each other.

@PatricksRum But Eastenders is running it as the poor white girl being abandoned

june2007 I think a lot of people are wondering. I think it’s to tell anyone on mumsnet who happens to be white that they are all racists by birth.
And if they ask what they should do (apart from obvious things like not being racist, raising their kids not to be racists, challenging racism when they see it) , they’re being told they should work it out for themselves and not ask ignorant questions.

OP you are judging every white person by the behaviour of some white people. That is prejudice.

It may well be. I'm not judging all white people by the same bar. You can read my OP to see this.
If prejudice is all you have to worry about then lucky you.

I won’t engage with you any more as your arguments are crass and clouded by fury. You have every right to be furious, but you are directing it at the wrong people.
I do, yes. I'm not directing my fury at white people who understand and are tackling racism. I've thanked them. Mentioned them.

Mumsnet is about sharing experiences, yet you say that other posters’ experiences “don’t matter”.
Mumsnet is. But our fight isn't about your experience of racial prejudices. Our fight is about us. This is our time. Feel free to start your own thread about being called 'white trash' or whatever your grievances are.

This thread is not supportive or helpful to the black lives matter movement or the progression against racism.

@PatricksRum Believe me, I'm listening. I'm just not suspending my critical thinking while I do it. The other black people I've discussed this issue with have said words to the effect that white people should listen to their truth - not pretend to believe everything they say even if it's wrong or nonsensical.

Anyway, I've made my point in clarifying the context of the message you screenshotted. I have no interest in making this thread all about me, so I'll leave it there and people can read and decide for themselves.

This isn't another "but I've experienced oppression too" post. Instead I'm asking all of those who have experienced oppression of any kind, misogyny/sexism, class oppression, homophobia, anti-semitism, anti-Roma, and anti-Irish to stand with black people. This is not a competition. Your experiences should arm you with empathy and that empathy should enable you to feel the justified anger, rage, grief, fear and anxiety that black people face.

Bloody awesome, AmericanAdventure. Said it way better than I've been managing.

Why should black people have to waste their time educating white people not to oppress them?

Because for most white people, racism is “hidden” or at least out of site.

@PatricksRum and I do teach him those extra things having sought knowledge while pregnant on how.

Several white people have accused me of labeling him and that he shouldn't even think of himself as different.

I see it that since he is going to experience racism he beeded to have it clear ib his mind from as early as possible that this is a problem in society, it happens to pretty much all black people and how to deal with it safely.

What's the alternative? That he just thinks its only him abd internalizes it all? The problem is that many parents of white children have it so far outside their experience they can't wrap their mond around it.

Another pet hate of mine is white parents who give a very diluted version of race issues to their kids because "they are tol young to understand" or as happened to me in one case when I was upset about ab old lady walking her dog telling my kid (then aged 5) "get back to Africa" when he was playing in a park and spoke to another parent about it she kind of shushed me and my son because her son "was tol young to understand and she wanted to protect hin from it". Her son was a year older than mine. He can't hear about what my son had tl directly experience. Pffffffffffff.

Changednamesorry I see what you mean. But some white people on these threads have tried to educate themselves only to be told they've got it wrong, or that they can't possibly understand or that they shouldn't take part in the deomstrations going on atm. And tbh I still don't know what kind of education I need, sorry.

@AmericanAdventure @LittlePearl

Thank you for understanding.

You're right in that it isn't a competition.
Humans have the horrible tenancy to race to the bottom.
Imagine bring black and a woman and poor.
This isn't "that's sad Patricks but a black man called me out for being white" whilst that racial prejudice is wrong, it comes from years of oppression and fear.

What is the point of this thread?

For people like you to read and listen so you can use your privilege to aid our battle.

@PatricksRum

You're saying that it's white people's duty to understand and do aomething about racism towards black people.

Of course it is. You hold the power. You are at the top of the heirachy.
Standing by and watching the racism is not what you should be doing.
That's harsh? Imagine that privileged that your scale of harsh is being told you should fight racism.

I think you are misunderstanding on purpose.

Hello all! I take my hat of to you @PatricksRum, that was quite a fight you put up.I followed the whole thread.

@BlackKite

Why should black people have to waste their time educating white people not to oppress them?

Because for most white people, racism is “hidden” or at least out of site.

If you choose not to look. If you choose to live your live in ignorance, happily floating along in the bubble your privilege affords you.

If we wish to achieve equity and equality, white people need to accept that the current systems benefits them enormously, and look to change them so that they benefit all. But shockingly, loads of white people seem unwilling to do this 🤔

But know that it is up to you to effect changes and it is not up to Black people to tell you how or why. Every second you don't educate yourself is a second you are complicit in the oppression of Black lives.

@drspouse @Changednamesorry you have both hit the nail on the head.
Thanks for both of your comments.

I feel like there needs to be a better way of saying 'this is more a priority right now' than telling the folk you want to listen to you that;

'Your experiences don't matter right now'

Or as I have read elsewhere;

'if you are white, you are racist'.

It's true, my experiences as a fat disabled white woman who has been spat at in the street due to her appearance, judged as incapable of doing things due to her appearance, scared to leave the building due to her appearance... are not the same as being black. Nor would I say they are.

But human nature is to find common ground, to try to empathise, to try and get just a glimpse of what someone elses life might be like...

And I do feel like some peoples choice of language is getting more peoples backs up, and causing them to be defensive, than it is helping matters.

I didn't ask to be born white, fat, disabled or female but apparently I should, according to some (be clear, not all) feel GUILTY because of that, for what distant ancestors and other white people did, hundreds of years ago, tens of years ago, last week.

They are not me, and I feel ANGRY that those people did those things but just as I do not believe all of any group should be held to account for the actions of a few, I don't react well to being told I should always feel guilt for the behaviour of people I don't know, never knew, could not have known, who did terrible things.

I want to be an ally, I am anti-racism, where I see it, I say it, I challenge it.

However it is not my fault that I don't see all of it, I don't see what someone else experiences, and I cannot ever know first hand what that's like.

I accept that it is not someone elses fault if they cannot imagine what my life is like because they haven't lived it, but I do not believe that I will educate them on what it IS like to face the issues I face, by making them feel terrible, making myself unapproachable and lumping them all under one label.