Is working full time harming my kids?

[Jraven]

Ok as if I don't feel guilty enough for working, there's a study out today published by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation which says that working full time while your kids are pre-school increases their chances of psychological stress, unemployment and doing less well at A level. What should we do - all pack it in? Where are these mythical part-time, flexi-hour jobs that we have be promised so long? Is the government's policy of getting mothers back to work all wrong?

[winnie]

Scummymummy ...LOL...!

[Faith]

LOL Scummymummy! Just want to add my voice as an evil corporate cowpat, whose neglected late developing dd's walked at 12 months and were composing sentences at 15 months. some of my BF's are snot and pooh-loving SAHM's, who haven't (or not to my face!!) criticised me for abandoning dd's to the nursery disciplinarians. I'll be your friend Pamina! The SAHM comment I just loved was to express envy of us workers, because we get holidays!!!

[TigerMoth1]

Well I saw the first line on the message tree 'Watching sproglets on her webcam Is unnatural Mum Pamina.....'
I thought oh no, this converstion has gone seriously off the rails. Then I looked at your poem, Scummy, realised how clever you were being.
Fantastic!

[ASF]

Why have children if you are going to leave them in a nursery from 8 till 6. That is selfish and cruel.
Did none of you see the documentery on this. Hidden cameras revealed the true story. Go ahead put your own lives before your babies but Puuurrleas dont bleat on and on about how good it is. ITS NOT.

[Paula1]

Oh for gods sake - how did that comment help anyone ASF?

[TigerMoth1]

ASF are you saying all child care is wrong, or just nursery care?

[ASF]

I just think Why have a child if you are going to leave them to someone else to bring up. Even if you are going to leave them with your own mother why did you bother to have a baby???
Iam talking about women who leave them allll day not the parttimers. And hey I mean dads too. But one parent should most of the day with their child whilst the other works or what the hell was the point?
And if I hear that argument one more time "But we need to work to live" HELLO??
Downsize your spending your habbits then but for gods sake DO NOT expect us to beleive that you need two salarys to just get by. For one thing a good chunk would be swallowed up by childcare costs.
So get a grip and work out whats more important in life A: spend spend spend or B: your baby.
If the answer is A then fair enough to each their own.
BTW Don't shoot the messenger More people than you think feel this way they just don't say it to your face.

[bells2]

ASF - I find you message truly astounding. To suggest that the decision to work or not simply comes down to "spend, spend, spend" or " spend time with your baby" is naive and ignorant to say the least.

On a different note and in defence of what is perceived to be Pamina's "over sensitivity" ; I do think that when SAHM's explicitly or implicitly criticise working women for their selfishness, callousness, neglect or whatever that this is far more wounding to the mother concerned than any criticisim in the other direction. I know it is deeply unfair for SAHM's to be accused of watching daytime telly, putting all the financial burden on their husbands or whatever but it isn't nearly as hurtful as being accused of somehow not loving or caring for your child.

[TigerMoth1]

Bells, I think your last point is so true. Can there be anything worse than one parent accusing another of being cruel to their children?

[Joe1]

We are all different, with different lives who have different children and make different choices. We choice to have the things we have and have decent meals so I have to work. I chose a job that allows me to take ds with me because I didnt want to put him into a nursery, my choice.
I read in the paper a week or so ago about the drug mules. These poor women have to do this for their childrens food, clothing, medical needs and education, they have to pay for everything. This one lady got caught, is in jail over here with her children at home (cant remember where she came from) with her 7 month old baby gone missing. I think we are all quite lucky really, we have a choice and plenty of them.

[Enid]

Brilliant Scummymummy! But you might have to change the words slightly as I've just come back from checking out a childminder for my 2 year old...so not such a perfect SAHM after all!

[Bugsy]

Wow, what a hotbed of strong feelings. First of all - excellent poem Scrummymummy. I am in awe of your ability, it would have taken me at least a week to come up with something not half as good.
Second, ASF, IMO your opinions are quite extreme. If there are lots of people out there who are in agreement with you, why haven't I heard any of them, seen articles in papers by them etc?
I think most mums & dads genuinely want the best for their children in whatever circumstances they find themselves living in. Just because you are in paid employment full-time does not mean that you shouldn't want, have or love your children. For goodness sake, if people who worked full time didn't have children the human population would have died out millenia ago!

[smokey]

My children are now 8 and 4 and over the years I have been variously a working mum, a SAHM and a mum who works from home. I have experience of using nurseries and a nanny. Whether I was working or a SAHM at the time, never before have I encountered any woman criticising me for making any of these choices.

What I have encountered is other women anxiously trying to do the very best for their children whilst balancing family finances and their own sanity. This is against a background of never ending press reports and research showing that whatever a mother decides it is bound to be wrong according to some expert or pressure group.

Women already have enough to deal with such as unequal pay, reduced career prospects, lack of status, a shortage of quality childcare to name but a few issues. We should not be criticising anyone for their choices and in many cases (due to the above problems) the choices are not really what the woman concerned wants to choose.

[Enid]

Bells and Tigermoth, I agree that there's nothing worse than accusing someone of neglecting their child. And I would never do that. But Pamina's message DID upset me as it is really crap being a SAHM when all you hear is how frivolous and dull you must be. I know Pamina didn't make a personal attack on SAHMS but its just so soul-destroying to face criticism as an SAHM. You don't even have your work identity to fall back on as a comfort! We are such an easy target but it is a really hard thing to do and we aren't all smug and self-satisfied, believe me. I have often questioned my choice as I see other kids who have been at nursery who are much more socially aware than my very loving, but timid, daughter.

[berries]

Great poem Scummymummy, but not sure where I fit in. According to SAHMs I am a working mum, but to working mums, I am a SAHM, ah well, coming from Brum I'm used to balancing on that north/south dividing fence!
Just a quick point to ASF, if looking after your kids at home is so good, and childcare is so bad, how come far more children are killed/abused in the home environment than in nursery environments, and please don't suggest it all depends on the circumstances, because isn't that just what everyone (except you) have been saying.

[Rosy]

Pamina - don't go!

Scummymummy - do you write professionally? It's a pity if you don't.

Loopyann - sorry nobody's addressed your concerns in all the excitement. Your neighbour sounds a pain, please don't take any notice of her. You can't extrapolate from one child, but I'll do it anyway, for reasons of balance. My child's just 2, and has been in nursery full-time since she was 7 months. She only uttered her first "words" at 14 months: "o" for dog and "bo" for ball. She can now put 4 words together - mainly to order us around! - and has a huge vocabulary. She has used a potty a few times, but more by luck than anything. She'll be toilet trained when she's ready, I've got no desire to stretch it out over several months. Speak to you HV if you're concerned about Callum not crawling. Hope this reassures you a bit - mumsnetters are usually a bit more supportive, honest!

[sis]

Yet another reason why you will always be scrummymummy to me - what a great response to all the nasty comments.

Sadly, I don't have scummymummy's talents so I will just let ASF know that surely the only reason anyone has a baby is as a fashion accessory - I didn't even know there were any other reasons.

Sorry, that is very, very childish - even by my standards but, ASF, how do you get to decide how much time it is okay for parents to spend away from their babies? surely if nureries are staffed by these awful people then it is wrong for babies to go there part-time as well as full time or is it acceptable to neglect babies on a part time basis?

I do feel very strongly about this as we have a really lovely childminder for our ds and I am offended that anyone could assume that she would ever deliberately neglect our ds.

[berries]

BTW Pamina, enjoy your little angel but a word of warning. My eldest was just like that, and I assumed it was because I did everything right, then no 2 arrived, I'm sure she was 'sent' to stop me feeling smug, as I then became the one who couldn't carry on a conversation, and whose main topic of conversation was how much sleep I did (or didn't get) the night before. So, just in case you were thinking of number 2 (and I'm definately NOT going to suggest that is any better or worse than one on their own) you may not find no 2 quite so easy!
PS Both of mine when to nursery 3 days per week, suppose that makes me a mother from hell as well!

[smokey]

Having slagged off the press and researchers (!) I must mention a TV programme I saw recently about identical twins separated at a young age. The researchers found that if they were brought up in totally different families, it made little difference to their eventual personalities and interests. On the other hand, my father and uncle were identical twins brought up identically and had very different personalities and interests to each other.

My conclusion - children will grow up to be the person they are destined to be whatever we do, so we should make the best decisions for our own children and stop worrying.

[Lizzer]

Just have to say how brilliant I thought your poem was Scummy, and you really should be doing it professionally (if not could you do a few for me for my creative writing coursework )

I think that ASF's comments are obviously very strong, but I remember making similar black and white judgements about all sorts of parenting issues myself not so very long ago. I think the beauty of this site is that I've learned how other people's views are just as valid as my own (prime examples being GF, dummies...I could go on!) On the other hand, its great to hear such feisty comments, keeps these debates interesting and fresh...

(I think I'm mellowing in my old age -gah! Must try harder... )

[Pupuce]

Lizzer... old age .... remember we saw what you looked like in Vinnopolis !!!
I will not respond to ASF - don't feel its worth responding to. All of this is a lot of negative energy ! I need to think positive !

[jessi]

Where do all the SAHM's hear this critism about their status? I am a SAHM who works occassionaly and I have NEVER been critised, ever! Most people I meet think its a hard job and seem to appreciate that. Luckily my partner agrees. Perhaps I just meet nicer people on my travels...