Is working full time harming my kids?

[Jraven]

Ok as if I don't feel guilty enough for working, there's a study out today published by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation which says that working full time while your kids are pre-school increases their chances of psychological stress, unemployment and doing less well at A level. What should we do - all pack it in? Where are these mythical part-time, flexi-hour jobs that we have be promised so long? Is the government's policy of getting mothers back to work all wrong?

Tigermoth - I hope you meant ante-natal.....!

I hope I can post a completely neutral message here: I didn't want to go back to work, and always assumed I would stay at home with my children. But in the end I couldn't stand living in poverty just to be at home. My work refused point blank to offer me p/t work (even though it would have been possible with a moment's consideration. Their argument was that everyone would then have wanted to work part-time. So what's wrong with that?) But I have to admit, after 18 months that it's really worked out very well. Dd loves it, the staff are very caring, there are lots of things going on (though I recognise the atmosphere wouldn't suit every child), and I think we appreciate the time we do spend with her because we're working all week. Also, I think if I were at home, dh would work all hours (at the moment he takes dd to nursery in the morning and I pick her up.) I'm sure Pamina didn't expect no reply on this one!

At the end of the day we are all mothers who suffer from much of the same insecurities and anxieties. I personally hate the terms SAHMs and 'working mums' - why alienate each other? I have met lots of rude working mums and some equally rude SAHMs. As for making you feel inadequate, well doesn't that happen all the time anyway? I had a discussion over Christmas with my dh's family over how many children they think I should have. I have one and as I suffered from severe ante-natal depression I doubt there will be any more, but they don't know this and so they think it is their right to dictate my life to me.

So it is a battle of 'Only Child Mothers' and 'Multiple Sibling Mothers' - OCM v MSM. See how ridiculous it all is!

I think you should just take their comments with a pinch of salt Pamina, they probably meant no offence. They are so used to chatting amongst themselves they probably forgot that you work.

Peace man!

Pamina, I wasn't going to get into these debates as I get my fair share of "Mumsnet rant and abuse" when I mention Gina Ford... but I am glad you replied to Callie because I felt that her comment wasn't very nice... DS is also at nursery and is currently having so much fun there that when I drop him off, I can't get his coat off fast enough and he runs in screaming either "water" or "car" or "story".... what ever they are busy playing with and when I pick him up he runs into my arms and then goes right back to play !!! It is a great sight as I sometimes wish I did have more daytime time for him but I also work.
DS is also very well behaved in restaurants, etc but I have no idea if it's from genes, nursery or what ever.... No one would never call him unactive or uninquisitive !!!! And anyway other children we take out are not so well behaved and they go to the same nursery so I don't think Callie's point is appropiate.
I've said my peace

Callie and Sara7, I can also assure you that my son is very much loved at his nursery and closely supervised by his keyworker and her colleague. He is an exceptionally inquisitive and affectionate little chap at home and at nursery.
I wouldn't presume to comment on the pros and cons of having my child looked after by family members because I have no experience of this. Out of interest, what personal evidence do you have that nurseries systematically neglect children?
I'd also hope to be less insensitive about making sweeping remarks in a group setting, which I think is what upset Pamina. I've been there too, Pamina - I've had other mums working outside the home criticise parents who use nurseries (rather than nannies); mums who breastfed until 9-12 months criticising those who practise extended breastfeeding; and mums with two or more suggesting that people with one child only are selfish (LisaV, we had that conversation at Christmas too), all in a setting that is supposed to be sociable and friendly. All it takes is to think before you open your mouth and hurt someone who is supposed to be a friend.

Pamina Why do you have to wait to be asked to comment? Do you just sit there quietly and not speak unless asked when you go to these meetings?
And WHY do you go when you obviously cannot stand any of the other mothers?
I remember a thread you started a while back about how you thought these mothers were all being bitchy to you to do with babies sleeping thru and breastfeeding. I bet my bottom dollar that these mothers do NOT go to postnatal group just to wind you up.
I agree with Enid That your being a touch paranoid and sensitive here.
Perhaps you should examine your own feelings towards working? Maybe your envious of the other mothers for being at home with their babies whilst you can only watch her thru a webcam.That would explain why you are constantly looking for any sign from them that yhey cant cope. eg. you r baby being better behaved.
You say you think the other mothers are just waiting for your baby to misbehave so they can get some sought of weird satisfaction that they are superior to you.
But isnt this actually exactly what your doing by smugly looking after anothers baby while the whole time delighting in the fact that their babies are not as good as yours and even following it up with a comment about it being because she goes to nursery therefore implying that nursery care is somehow better.
Please dont take this the wrong way. Iam soon to face these issues myself as my twins are due in 2 weeks and I shall be returing to work after 9mths.
I just think this runs far deeper for you and that perhaps you feel uncomfortable in the sahms company because you are a tad envious and not convinced you are doing the right thing. A bridge I will have to cross myself soon!
Give the other mothers a chance and dont wait for anyone to ask just talk about anythink you want. But dont think that every comment is aimed at you I doubt very much a conspiracy is going on here. Just relax.

Your right Pupouce (Sorry Iv spellt it wrong) I think in hind sight I came on a little strong by insinuating that paminas baby was placid because of being ignored in nursery. But isnt that exacltly what pamina was doing when she described how the babies of the sahm were "clambouring for attention" implying that that they are soft and mollycoddled?
Marina I apologise if I offended you Of course I dont think all nurseries are bad and your little boy sounds like he loves his. Its just babies who I think are a little too young. In fact my own dd has her name down for a local day nusery for when she is 2ys 9mths. She will do two mornings 9 till 1. I think it will benefit her a great deal.

Actually Sara7, I thonk it is you who should relax!, Pamina's original message was just a throw-away comment after all...

I disagree Croppy. It was far from just a throwaway comment. Pamina feels very strongly about this that much is obvious.

I agree with callie on the point that nursery is not the best for young babies under one year. Although we might not like to hear it there is something quite sad about only watching a little one through a web camera instead of having physical contact with them during the day.
My daughter is now 19 yrs old and in college and I put up with a lot from my mil when I put her in daycare at 4mths. It was not so common then but at the time I was a personnel manager of a large confectionery company and very ambitious.
However I do regret now those missed early yrs and feel envious of my younger sister who with a young toddler is experiencing the highs and lows of motherhood first hand instead of through a webcamera or a nannys daily reports.
On a brighter note my daughter is a lovely well adjusted young women with a future in law ahead of her. This is despite a road accident at the age of 12 that saw her spend 3mths in ITCU.
Iam so proud of her that she turned out so well.

I have found with my friends and family that the babies of working mums are slower to reach milestones than full time mums.
Has anyone else found this?
My ds Callum is 14mths and Im worried , he is not crawling but he does bottom shuffle a bit but is not yet taken any steps at all.
The only word he says is boc for bottle and bye. The rest is just babble.
He goes to a childminder who also looks after 3 older children.
My next door neighbour is always bragging that her dd (15mths) was walking at 9mths and has a vast vocab all because she has all day to devote to her GRRRRRRR!!
She is even introducing the potty and delights in telling me her dd can count to 5 . Ahhhh!
She got me worried it might be my fault ds is behind.

I've just wrote a long e-mail but something happened and it got lost... so I'll summarise !
I don't think you can say that children at nurseries are either slower or faster than the one that stay at home. There are several reasons why children learn some things quickly or slowly and it's not just down to who is around them.
Also my DD started nursery 2 weeks ago - she is 5 mo - she goes 3 days a week. I wish I had the choice to delay her start but I didn't.
I have been going to get her early and she is usually laughing/gurggling away with staff. She is often in their arms ! And staff from the other room (with older children) and the nursery manager keep telling me how they went to see her for a cuddle... my DD is obviousy absolutely adorable, that's why they are queuing !!!!!!! But very seriously I don't think she is lacking from attention. When she is at home with her 2 yo brother she doesn't get much more attention because he is requiring most of it !!! I have to discipline myself in a way to make sure I do talk to her, I do cuddle her, etc I am very conscious that her brother is going through a phase and is currently demanding a lot. She isn't that unlucky to go to nursery. At least that's what I believe.

Loopyann... I work fulltime and DS walked at 12 months and talks quite well in 3 languages and he just turned 2 (he makes sentences in 2 languages and knows some vocabulary in the 3rd). I know plenty of children of SAHM (from the ante-natal class and from the music group) whose children were not walking as early and definitely don't speak as well as he does. I think it's his genes.... just kidding : it's a mixture of things.

Pamina - a bit of advice from someone who has had to defend her GF choices on Mumsnet in the past... if you are confident of your choices... don't worry about what others think.
But don't stay away please, we need you in other threads.

Come on everyone - how about some new year resolutions not to get so personal? I wonder if we would all act like this if this discussion was face-to-face? As I said earlier, all mothers have the same anxieties and worries and instead of pulling each other to pieces, we should be supporting each other, that's what Mumsnet is for after all!

However I do think that perhaps you are being just a tad sensitive Pamina, these women are so obviously used to talking amongst themselves about being SAHMs that they probably forgot that you worked. I bet if you told them how offended you were, they would be mortified. Just think how wonderful your child is (and she sounds like an angel) and be grateful for that, no-one can take that away from you, working mum or not. I am a SAHM and could easily be offended by so many people who constantly ask me when am I returning to work, by questionnaires or forms that list me as 'unemployed' as there is no category for a full-time mum, by single friends who comment that I must have an easy life 'not doing anything all day'. But I just laugh these comments aside and think how sad these people are. Since September 11th my resolution is to be nicer to people and not let little things grind me down or spoil my day. It sounds as if these throwaway remarks made by these mums and some of the mums on here, have really gotten to you Pamina, don't let them stress you out!

Watching sproglets on her webcam
Is unnatural Mum Pamina.
She's abandoned them to baby jail
Just like evil witch Marina.

Such miscreants, such vile scum
To thus neglect their role as Mum
And waste their time with workplace natters.
On the net they chat to Batters-
Another baby hating stinker
Who won't stay home. And then there's Tinker-
(Don't get me started on her badness
For that could truly lead to madness.)

And on the net they also see
Mums who are more truly bonded
Enid, Callie and Liza V
Proper mums who've not absconded.
Better people through and through
Fond of games and snot and poo
And talking slow and high and sweet
And kissing baby hands and feet.

But wait a second, what is this?
A child abandoned in mid kiss?
The perfect Mummy disappears
To post on Mumsnet all her fears.
The child whimpers, whines and pouts
Mummy tuts and types and shouts:
"You're really getting on my tits!"
And suddenly the benefits
Of child care are quite quite clear.
Perhaps there is a nursery near?

LOL scummymummy!

Lol Scummymummy . You hit the nail on the head!!

Great poem, Scummymummy, it made me laugh a lot (and I need all the laughs I can get in this dreary working environment I'm in). Have you thought about trying to make your poetry profitable? Hopefully it's diffused the heated debate on this thread....

Cheers ScummyMummy, the next poet laureate surely Must now sign off to go and fix mascara running down face with tears of laughter.

An Evil Witch