How to deal with ‘hello beautiful’

[Sunflowersandspiders]

A man in my office has started saying ‘hello beautiful’ to me when I see him. It seems to be a common schtick for him that he deploys on lots of women I work with. It makes me uncomfortable, I want it to stop, but I don’t know what to say. ‘Hi John, do you mind not commenting on my appearance please?’

At the moment I’m avoiding him, trying not to walk past his desk, no eye contact if he walks past mine. Probably can’t be sustained eternally.

Sidebar: why do men do this? Control? I am so tired of having to navigate this shit in the workplace.

I think things really used to be problematic. Society has moved on and for the better. But there comes a point at which an ability to cope a bit is useful.

@Calliopespa I work with a lot of 20-30 year olds. I can't imagine anything remotely offensive coming out of their months. They are too respectful, and also too intelligent.

So it can be done, it doesn't have to be a neverending purity spiral of taking offence.

I have heard horror stories though from universities about students not wanting to read set books as triggering, safe spaces, not allowed to use certain words, endless requests for extensions because of vague mental health reasons etc. So I know it can be taken to a ridiculous extreme in some places, where lecturers feel like they are being spied on and reported (which they are).

Thanks. I'm sorry my previous post made me sound so annoyed. I think my "anger" was directed at the wrong people! But it sounds like you know where I'm coming from.
Yes, looking unimpressed CAN work, but some creeps take that as a chance to say something else. I've had "oh dear am I boring you?" (there's an obvious answer but it just prolongs the conversation) and the regular "you look much nicer when you smile"!

It honestly really frightens me that universities have got to this point. They should be places for freedom of speech . Think back to pre-enlightenment times - and think of how the philosophers who have done so much to change and advance human thought were clapped into prison for daring to profess things we now depend on.

Im not a misogynistic person ( im a woman myself) but we do need to be aware that, taken to an extreme, the topic has a significant area of overlap with principles like freedom of speech. That’s why I’m all for limits on how much we should try to police the way others express themselves. I really worry where the world is headed.

People focus on the issue at the end of their nose (“ i don’t want to be called that”) and fail to lift their eyes to the horizon and consider the wider implications of that level of that sort of control of others. No men shouldn’t punch bottoms. But the “he said hello beautiful “ reminds me of a tattle/tale five year old: “ Muuuum he called me dumb dumb,” “ Well that’s not nice but try to ignore him dear.”

Sorry “ pinch bottoms!” They shouldn’t punch them either !

@Calliopespa you're far brighter than me and put forward a very good argument. My view is just that people take offence to easily these days at the slightest thing when actually no harm is intended and they do it in a very aggressive way as if no one else is entitled to an opinion which I don't like. I've come to an age now where I just turn off the news and try to ignore what's going on as much as possible, I'm past all that now but I do worry what the future will be like for my children - my view is still that things are a lot, lot worse in Britain today than they were even 20 years ago and they're getting worse all the time.

Is he equally nice to the men in the office too?

Or have you missed the last 50 years of life in the western world?

I'm old, and not one bit delicate.

And even I know this isn't sweet.

How about -
"Morning, sexy"
"Morning, Nubian Queen"
"Morning, stud"...

Maybe try harder to keep up with more modern philosophers and developments in the law?

Philosophers and thinkers who were and continue to be reviled because they dared to stuck their necks out and suggest women and men were equally capable of higher level mathematics, space travel, working as surgeons, military officers, etc.

Also - having their own bank accounts, driving, taking out mortgages and buying their own homes.

But equally important - the right not to have to put up with a hostile workplace where men are allowed to breach boundaries and women have to suck it up or be considered "delicate".

The attempt to associate a woman's right to call a spade a spade with an infringement of the right to free speech in the wider context is richly ironic.

I agree with you on several of those points- especially the fact that people think not like an opinion is sufficient justification for silencing it, and completely agree with what you say about how people can be really quite aggressive in the way they demand that people don’t express certain views. Abuse and genuine offensive behaviour should not be tolerated; but we have to be careful where we draw the lines, and careful about how we object lest the objection become as much a problem as the offence.

Obviously this is an anonymous forum but I think you would find I am not unfamiliar with those developments in the least. But the seeds for many of the developments you yourself reference were sown by those very early philosophers and were an outgrowth of a rejection of certain views being silenced . Do you hanker for the Middle Ages mathanxiety? Because that’s where a focus on the detail not the broader picture will lead us.

That's not nice.

I don't think that works. If he gets an over the top "Hello Honeybunny" that'll just encourage him more. Any icy reply will make him think she's an odd one but won't stop him doing what he normally does. No, best advice is to spell it out plainly.

You're saying the broader picture is that everyone has the right to say whatever they want, to anyone, anytime, and this is because there's a higher principle involved.

Men can insult, demean, and verbally abuse women, using misogynistic terms and/or sexually objectify them in the workplace, at home, and outdoors, and we should all rejoice that we live in a society where freedom of speech is considered a higher value than the right to be protected from hate speech or sexual objectivisation.

People who refrain from freely expressing every opinion they have of others are complicit in the erosion of freedom of speech. Self censorship must be a bad thing because it means we place some other value ahead of the principle of freedom of speech.

This right to freedom of speech extends to people with views on other people's skin color or ethnic origin or religious beliefs or practices.

Or have I got that wrong?

He’s not actually “commenting on your appearance”, though. He might think you’re beautiful but it’s just as likely he thinks you’re not. It’s the kind of thing you’d say to an elderly woman tbf. It’s something he obviously thinks is kind, but it’s unprofessional. Nothing sinister going on.
Just tell him it makes you uncomfortable and move on.

Yep. I was around in the 80s and I hated it too.

Those that didn't were probably in a more senior role so didn't get it so much or were hardnosed enough that they didn't get any hassle. It doesn't mean it's right that more sensitive women or those in a more junior role have to put up with it.

I love being older because I don't get twats telling me to 'smile it might never happen' or that kind of shit. I'm not looking forward to being older when people start patronising me again for being elderly (based on MN that's about 65 😮).

Well, this is the thing isn’t it? If he’s saying it to everyone it’s just his way, a bit gauche but no problem. If he’s only saying it to the OP then I think it is crossing a line.

Oh for goodness sake, this isn't about the right to practise a religion or discuss your political views. As far as I know no-one has fought any wars to defend your right to be a nob in the office.

As for not being a misogynist, many women are. A prime example was Margaret Thatcher, she despised women, even her own daughter. Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you know what's best for the rest of us. You seem to have swallowed the 'play nice, don't rock the boat' message that hasn't benefited any women ever.

Someone who says 'I wonder where the world is headed' is often out of touch and harks back to a time that didn't really exist. I didn't find it particularly delightful being touched up by men in the office and patronised by Jim from accounts. This kind of thing is all part of it and I am not surprised that the OP isn't having it.

@Calliopespa Being a woman doesn't mean you're not a misogynist.

"People focus on the issue at the end of their nose (“ i don’t want to be called that”) and fail to lift their eyes to the horizon and consider the wider implications of that level of that sort of control of others."

You seem to be saying that in order to preserve "freedom of speech" people should be free to say whatever they want, and it's controlling for someone to say "please don't call me xxxx-I don't like it." Is that your position? How far do you take this?

You know what’s worse? Excusing creepy male behaviour.

You’ve got that wrong. Very wrong.

I have clearly and consistently said this is about line drawing.

Genuinely insulting, abusive or offensive behaviour should not be tolerated.

But the problem is that if that net gets cast too wide, we run into a problem where expression and discussion of issues becomes hampered in a way that is regressive. Look at the situation with universities where robust debate should be fostered. I’m wondering actually, what country are you in?

@butterbeansauce I totally agree with the point about women sometimes harder on other women than men, generally I really loved working in the 80’s and worked in London as a secretary and then PA for a large financial company and me and others were managed by a softly spoken Scottish lady who was very well respected because she worked hard but she was a real hard taskmaster and a right stickler. In supervision she’d pull us on what we wore, once I was ‘told off’ for wearing a leather skirt and another time for wearing boots as always had to be heels and skirt and dresses, no trousers, also one time a guy pinched my bum in the lift and when I told her as she knew who it was she made it clear she wouldn’t say anything to him and thought I was making a fuss!

@Meadowwild

Chrsytalchondalier
"I think he's just being nice and maybe he thinks charming and you're reading too much into it tbh. It wouldn't bother me at all"

That is what he expects you to think. But consider what the message is, here:

I, a man, am viewing you, and rating you, in your place of work, according to how aesthetically pleasing you are to me. Your sexual appeal to me is my priority.

Do you not see that this is a subtle way to control women and put us in our place? We shouldn't be up for aesthetic assessment every time we arrive at work. We should feel our ability to work is the only thing we are judged on.

How would John feel if every time you and any other woman at work saw him, you said, 'Hello, dad-bod' with a friendly smile. 'No offence, John! I was just grading you, as you grade me each day! Have a sense of humour, love!'

well put.

• how about a "Morning, 3 out of 10!"

No, I’m absolutely not saying people should abe able to say whatever they want.

On the contrary, if you read carefully, I’m saying this is about where to draw lines. If people can say “ whatever they want,” there isn’t any for line-drawing, is there?

I think things that are genuinely derogatory or offensive behaviour should not be tolerated. An example I have was bottom-pinching. It’s demeaning and intrusive. But for me, while I’d find it cheesy and isn’t how I would expect men in my family to behave, I can perfectly well cope with a “morning beautiful” - especially as it is seldom meant in a sexually predatory context, but is a platitude often shelled out, as others have noted, to older women. I’m not saying that’s where YOUR line has to be; that would run against the grain of what I am saying which is that we all need a little tolerance at some point or unscripted interaction and discussion of issues will eventually become impossible.

So my question is really the same one to you: how far do YOU take it?
And I well realise women can be misogynistic but mentioned I am a women to circumvent the “ are you a man” responses. Because I wanted proper discussion not deflection.