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re all the discussion about being at home or working, just found this comment on another website - what do you think?

216 replies

ssd · 11/04/2007 09:15

"Just thought I'd point out that parents who spend more time at work than they do with their kids - whether through choice or compulsion is irrelevant really - are going to be relatively inexperienced at childcare. How is a parent who puts their first baby in nursery - or with a nanny - or other paid servant - from 8.30-6.30 five days a week - going to be able judge how that care has or has not affected their child? They can barely manage the little tyke themselves at the weekend. Plenty of high-achievers have had miserable childhoods at the hands of paid carers. Peter Ustinov, raised largely by nannies, noted in his autobiography how vulnerable children are to being the brunt of a servant's frustrations, and how unlikely this is to come to either the parent or the child's attention as being abnormal or even wrong. Read the first chapter of Mary Poppins and laugh (or cry!) Like all things, if you want to ensure that the job is well done, do it yourself or entrust it to someone you know really well and trust; otherwise it is really the blind leading the blind."

actually makes a lot of sense to me, what do others think?

OP posts:
GooseyLoosey · 17/04/2007 14:32

What exactly are we arguing about?

Some mothers work and want to, some mothers work and have to, some mothers do not work.

Some children are brought up badly, some are brought up beautifully, some are OK.

I have personally yet to detect a correlation between the two.

So we don't all live perfect lives or have all the things we want to. That's life.

kks · 17/04/2007 14:32

Your being a bit black and white now peggerpoppet. Singlemums are entitaled to more then mums with working partners, i know that. Its not as easy as your making out.

edam · 17/04/2007 14:32

Oh, and looking across the world and outside the immediate concerns of 2007, it is NORMAL for mothers to work. SAHM is a relatively recent and originally middle-class phenomenon. Middle-class Victorians prized being able to employ servants to look after the house and the children because a wife who had no work to do in or out of the home was a status symbol (apeing the upper classes). Working class mothers took in laundry, or worked in factories, or did piecework.

The issue with poor mothers not being able to work through lack of childcare has emerged as a result of people moving away from their own families. Previously far more people would have been able to rely on their extended family or friends to help out.

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 14:33

so kks, your friend doesn't have a choice?
that is what I am talking about, people like her who genuinely don't get a choice.
that is unfair.

equally for some others it is a lifestyle choice.

ScottishThistle · 17/04/2007 14:34

I have only two things to say "I'm not a servant!" & "A parent who would rather be at work can also damage a child!"

NKffffffffee0f7f95X1118efd8f2d · 17/04/2007 14:35

People are obsessed with choice. Like having a choice is a right or something. The right to choose your hospital, your working hours, eveything. Sometimes I think life is about playing the hand you're dealt.

suejonez · 17/04/2007 14:36

edam generations of women in my family have worked, mostly in low paid jobs with family and friends in childcare role. It wasn't always the lovely perception of granny cafefully nurturing the little ones either. It would sometimes be 12 yr old eldest daughter forced to look after brothers or sisters or neighbours acting as cheap childminder with a pile of kids.

Agree with you it is (for the majority of the population) a recent phenomenon.

PeachyChocolateEClair · 17/04/2007 14:36

RE the assumption that all SAHM are hausfraus I am a student. I never know which category i fall into as I neither FT care for the kids ( though I fir nicelya round ds1 and ds2's school and need no other care atm) neither do I bring much in terms of income into the family- thee is some, but its almost all repayable when I graduate.

If we ever manage to conceive N04 I will most likely take a year out (not necessarily immediately- if say it happned that I wa due in April and due to grad in June, I'd finish (with hardships I am certain) and then have a gap year, but I would work eventually. Or study.

edam · 17/04/2007 14:37

Oh yes, not suggesting extended family was a perfect situation in every case, just that women have always worked.

kks · 17/04/2007 14:37

She does want like 5 kids though so i think her staying at home will be good for her

PeachyChocolateEClair · 17/04/2007 14:38

NKrandomassortmentoflettersandnumbers, i think you're sorta right but I think playing the hand you are dealy often means finding a way to create a choice. There's almost always some choice, even if oje alternative is really unappetising (eg benefits and a B&B whilst yu're on the HA list).

NKffffffffee0f7f95X1118efd8f2d · 17/04/2007 14:39

PeachyChocolateEclair (tasty name by the way), I think very few people into categories. The categories are so arbitrary. There are so many women whose lives have included a period of full time work with children, part time work with children, working from home with children and not working and having children. And, of course, studying with children.

It's only on mn and in newspapers that it's like two tribes.

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 14:40

gamegirly in that case you either choose a huge mortguage or you choose to move somewhere cheaper, or rent somewhere cheaper.

that is very expensive! but if you have an income that could buy you that lind of mortguage then you are not doing too badly!

it is not black and white kks. there is a big fat grey area here, thats the choice bit! -some people have choice, some don't, some people think thy don't have a choice when they perhaps do.

it is the people who dont have the choice who need some changes brought about.

I think most people agree that there are some who don't have a choice? but does anyone else beleive that that can /should be changed?

kks · 17/04/2007 14:41

My mum had me and my sister, lived in a 1 bedroom flat, she had to take on jobs here and there to make ends meet and survived. Its about dealing with what you have no matter what your situation is. My mum didn't have the childcare options we have today or the flexible working hours and she just got on with it because she had to.

vinhotinto · 17/04/2007 14:43

I work full time and dp is a SAHD does this mean I do not know my child, that dp is the only person who can look after her or that at weekends I am incapable - I think not.

If dp decided to leave me and I became a single mum, should I then give up my job and probably my house.

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 14:43

peachy, I believe that too, and have said that on here once before and got absolutely slatted for it!

kks · 17/04/2007 14:43

All these choices make life harder in my mind.

NKffffffffee0f7f95X1118efd8f2d · 17/04/2007 14:43

Of course, I know. And the way people find an answer to their dilemmas is interesting. Which is why I get bothered by the "us versus them" argument. It seems to be reducing human experiences to some sort of formula.

kks · 17/04/2007 14:45

It seems you can't win no matter what you do!

GameGirly · 17/04/2007 14:46

What I'm trying to say, PP (very inarticularly, I admit!) is that you seem to think that a choice is a right, when it isn't. Someone buying in my area will more than likely work in central London and commute in every day, which is almost an hour there and back. Some people can only do the work they are qualified to do in cities, my DH for example. Obviously, there is a choice: go do something for which you are not qualified elsewhere, but chances are you'll earn less because you are not qualified, so it's swings and roundabouts. I just don't think you should generalise. We live where we do because of DH's job. Therefore we have (in my opinion) a giant mortgage. We don't want to move further out where property prices are (a little) cheaper because of the increased commute costs and, more importantly, because neither of us wants less time at home than we already have. Absolutely everyone is different, everyone's situation is different, therefore we should let people decide what is best for their own families and lives, rather than judge them, as we're unlikely to know absolutely everything about them.

GameGirly · 17/04/2007 14:47

And I can't spell "inarticulately" - sorry!

NKffffffffee0f7f95X1118efd8f2d · 17/04/2007 14:47

The other thing that bothers me about the argument is that once it's elevated from the personal to the social ie: are kids damaged by their mothers working then the fact that really stands out is how much children suffer when neither parent work.

For example, the differences found in children who go to nurseries and those who don't (recent survey, recent mn debate) are nothing compared to the differences found in children whose parents don't work and those who do.

kks · 17/04/2007 14:49

I am a sahm,i cook,clean,do washing etc. I suppose i am like a 1950s housewife.My partner works, i get housekeeping. We are both good parents, we make all our desisions together and we are happy with that. If anyone looked at me and made a judgement i would think who cares. It's not gonna break my world if someone doesn't agree with my situation. I say fuck em!

PeachyChocolateEClair · 17/04/2007 14:49

Ah pp but i'm well nown for not nbeing into polarisation , deservedly or not (I reserve judgement) you seem to have a rep for it.

As I said before each to their own. variety makes us all a wonderful world, and makes the species stronger.

I artehr like my life. poeple seem to think we have hardships- I suppose we do, 2 Sn kids, DH has health issues at times, etc. But because I have managed to find a balance that works for us, which has involved moving to Wales, selling up and now renting (an admittedly much nicer) a property so i can study (and then have financial security if Dh gets really ill again), it doesn't seem hard at all.

Although as Buddha said

'All life is Dukka'.

bobsmum · 17/04/2007 14:50

Lack of profiles for both proposition and opposition on here again people! Sort it out!

If people are going to rubberneck this thread then I'm afraid we need more photos.

Contentious threads are to blockbuster movies as profile pages are to Heat magazine.