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re all the discussion about being at home or working, just found this comment on another website - what do you think?

216 replies

ssd · 11/04/2007 09:15

"Just thought I'd point out that parents who spend more time at work than they do with their kids - whether through choice or compulsion is irrelevant really - are going to be relatively inexperienced at childcare. How is a parent who puts their first baby in nursery - or with a nanny - or other paid servant - from 8.30-6.30 five days a week - going to be able judge how that care has or has not affected their child? They can barely manage the little tyke themselves at the weekend. Plenty of high-achievers have had miserable childhoods at the hands of paid carers. Peter Ustinov, raised largely by nannies, noted in his autobiography how vulnerable children are to being the brunt of a servant's frustrations, and how unlikely this is to come to either the parent or the child's attention as being abnormal or even wrong. Read the first chapter of Mary Poppins and laugh (or cry!) Like all things, if you want to ensure that the job is well done, do it yourself or entrust it to someone you know really well and trust; otherwise it is really the blind leading the blind."

actually makes a lot of sense to me, what do others think?

OP posts:
kks · 17/04/2007 14:12

preggerspoppet not every mother wants to stay at home. Some enjoy working, i am a sahm but i used to enjoy working. I think you have to realise that everyone is different and we all make different choices. This isn't 1950 you know!

NKffffffffee0f7f95X1118efd8f2d · 17/04/2007 14:13

There still seems to be an assumption that if women had a choice, they would always opt for not working.

What about if you like working? What about if you have a razor sharp brain and some phenomenal skills that can only be exercised in certain workplaces? What if you've trained for years in one particular field that you find fascinating? Or your work genuinely helps people and that made you feel proud and happy? Good reasons to work I'd say. Even if you didn't "need" the money.

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 14:13

CC, I know of people who taken huge mortuages because they want to live in a lovely big house but then claim that they are faced with no choice but to work in order to pay for it.
I'm am treading on dangerous terain here by saying this, but I just know from my experience that this can be the case.
likewise if I had continued in my career then we could afford a bigger morguage.

but yes mortguage/career is a necessity!

edam · 17/04/2007 14:14

The person quoted by the OP is barking, frankly. Has no idea how to or can't be bothered to construct a decent, logical argument.

FWIW I think some people are keen to make sweeping assertions unsupported by any serious evidence because they are keen to defend their own choices and refuse to consider that other people may have good reasons for doing things differently.

I've been a SAHM, a full time, now work from home part time. Ds has been in full-time nursery/had a nanny part time/now in combination of nursery school and childminder. I don't see any evidence that this has harmed him and no-one who has ever looked after him or come into contact with him has ever raised any concerns about his development or emotional security. My own mother was a SAHM when we were tiny, went up to part time and then full-time. Didn't leave me with any angst. Our childminders became family friends and one in particular is still my 'aunt' despite us moving away when I was 7 - her family was at my wedding and we were at her son's.

Taylormama · 17/04/2007 14:16

PP - we are going round in circles here - you say "Huge mortguages etc, again to some extent a lifestyle choice -FAIR ENOUGH, your decision"

Not a lifestyle choice but REALITY in the area where i live - it is a modestly sized house nothing fancy but property is a fortune where i live - i haven't been on holiday for 2 years and don't expect to be going any time soon, my wages don't go on luxuries but neccesities.

If i didn't work, then we would be overdrawn by the middle of the month, and if we had a disaster (like the boiler breaking) we couldn't fix it. Me and DH also put money away for DS's future ... every penny is accounted for and i am not running around swathed in Gucci going to the Maldives every 6 weeks - that is my reality

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 14:18

kks and nkkffee I think that if you choose to work then that is entirely your decision, I have no feelings on what others choose to do.

please read back... I just think it is wrong that some people do not get the luxury of such choice. compared with those who have financial insentive (tc etc) to work.

Bink · 17/04/2007 14:18

Just stepping in to agree with NKffffffffee0f7f95X1118efd8f2d (I had to cut & paste that) re this just not being a quarrel that appears in my real life (where I know lots of people in all sorts of working/not-working varieties). I think it's an issue that is particularly vulnerable to tone, in a way - so that the original quotation below, which is crude and purposely inflammatory, has that instantly polarising - and I would hope artificial - effect.

Whereas the bit of Allison Pearson's book which has her (FT working) heroine marvelling at her SAHM friends' ability to manage their children "like experienced kite-flyers, winding in a touch here, letting out against the breeze there" (not a direct quot, but you get the gist) is rather nice, and to me (a WOHM) not inflammatory in the slightest.

NKffffffffee0f7f95X1118efd8f2d · 17/04/2007 14:19

"Lovely big house" is such a vague description. Do you mean a manor house with a walled orchard or a five bed detached suburban house? Or something in between? Or bigger or smaller still? On the other hand, I think it's reasonable to assume that people know what sort of house feel is right for themselves and their family.

suejonez · 17/04/2007 14:19

I have a huge mortgage. Would you consider a basic three bed semi a huge house? Of course I could go for a two bed flat but dont feel that my income is funding an unreasonable deisire to live in fuck off luxury just a nice normal life. Of course if I am mad enough to live in an expensive part of London...

But then if I move away I lose my mum and my sister being 5 mins away...

And I quite like working...

But I would rather do three days a week...

Oh god this getting on with life business is just so not perfect.

However I'm sure that helpful articles written about a generic parent who may or may not do things differently to me but falls under the same heading "WOHM" wil help me make sense of it all.

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 14:20

well then taylormama it exactly people like you who I feel get the shitty end of the stick, and I think it is unfair.

kks · 17/04/2007 14:21

What do you mean the luxury of such choice? If you were given money to be a sahm by the government then i don't think they would be too happy if you then went out to work as well because you enjoy working. The government aint gonna give you something for nothing.

NKffffffffee0f7f95X1118efd8f2d · 17/04/2007 14:22

Actually, Preggers, I haven't said whether I work or not. And I'm not going to. I'm only interested in this debate when it's not personal. It's the underlying issues that I find intriguing.

kks · 17/04/2007 14:23

I think it depends where you live etc. If you live out in the sticks somewhere then wouldn't a house there be cheaper then a flat in a city?

contentiouscat · 17/04/2007 14:24

I just feel we have gone from it being "right" for women to stay at home to it being "right" for us to work - there IS no right or wrong as long as you and your children are getting what you need from life.

*Some people want to stay at home and raise their children themselves.

*Some people want to work and spend quality time with their children but still get the satisfaction of a career.

**Some HAVE to work although they would choose to SAH

Many of us would love to go out to work part time but cant due to the fact that by the time you have paid childcare you would have nothing left.

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 14:25

nfkkeee I meant you as in 'anybody' not you as in nfkkee!

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 14:26

kks millions of parents are given money to pay someone else to look after their kids, and top up earnings, whats the difference?

suejonez · 17/04/2007 14:26

the whole WOHM/SAHM thing is such a ridiculously arbitrary grouping. I have more in common with people who are in similar positions to me - similar age children, slightly hard up but not living below the poverty line etc etc. I have never thought much about whetehr they work or stay at home and it isn't particularly obvious from their childrens behavious either.

edam · 17/04/2007 14:27

Agree CCat but there's another category - people who stay at home despite wanting to work because it wouldn't be worth it after they'd paid for childcare and travel, or because flexible working is so hard to find.

NKffffffffee0f7f95X1118efd8f2d · 17/04/2007 14:27

CC - I honestly think that depends on what circles you move on. For example, if a woman wants to feel supported in her choice not to work when she becomes a mother, she could read The Daily Mail. Their editorials love non working mothers. There are many many people keen to assure women that staying home is the best thing for their children.

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 14:27

(of being given a bit to help care for your own kids?)

kks · 17/04/2007 14:27

Really? Who? If thats the case then lets all get someone else to look after the kids and go out to work!

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 14:29

anyone who recieves wftc, ctc, and up to 85% of chilcare payments, thats who!

kks · 17/04/2007 14:29

My friend would like to go out to work to earn some money but realised she would be working to pay for childcare. She isn't entitaled to much because she lives with her working boyfriend.

GameGirly · 17/04/2007 14:31

Taylormama, you're quite right about the huge mortgage not being a choice for some people in some areas. Just as an example, there's a house in my road on the market, mid-terrace, 2 double beds, 1 box room, 1 bathroom, minute kitchen and garden - £595,000. I'd be interested to see who can afford that without a big mortgage.
(Apologies if that was a little simplistic, but I was trying to find an example - in my opinion it's the perfect house for a young family, but how easy would it be for a couple in their early thirties with a couple of little ones to afford that?)

NKffffffffee0f7f95X1118efd8f2d · 17/04/2007 14:31

I know women who've done that - worked to pay for childcare. Even then some think it's worth it. It's not always money. Some people (women as well as men) get a great deal of satisfaction from their work. Of course some don't. But I still think their feelings about their work as well as their feelings about their role as a mother comes into play.