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re all the discussion about being at home or working, just found this comment on another website - what do you think?

216 replies

ssd · 11/04/2007 09:15

"Just thought I'd point out that parents who spend more time at work than they do with their kids - whether through choice or compulsion is irrelevant really - are going to be relatively inexperienced at childcare. How is a parent who puts their first baby in nursery - or with a nanny - or other paid servant - from 8.30-6.30 five days a week - going to be able judge how that care has or has not affected their child? They can barely manage the little tyke themselves at the weekend. Plenty of high-achievers have had miserable childhoods at the hands of paid carers. Peter Ustinov, raised largely by nannies, noted in his autobiography how vulnerable children are to being the brunt of a servant's frustrations, and how unlikely this is to come to either the parent or the child's attention as being abnormal or even wrong. Read the first chapter of Mary Poppins and laugh (or cry!) Like all things, if you want to ensure that the job is well done, do it yourself or entrust it to someone you know really well and trust; otherwise it is really the blind leading the blind."

actually makes a lot of sense to me, what do others think?

OP posts:
PanicPants · 16/04/2007 22:19

Exactly BBS.

ebenezer · 16/04/2007 22:30

PP...you have nothing to feel guilty about. Try not to be miserable or depressed. I know it's easy to say, but honestly, you are being a good parent by caring and providing for them and being central in their life. I don't know why people feel the need to do this... but i think plibble is probably nearest the mark. Sometimes people just feel they HAVE to justify their own position by putting others down. I'm sure one or two of my friends who stayed home with their children were secretly ever so slightly disappointed that my children are turning out just as clever/well adjusted/sociable etc as theirs!

PanicPants · 16/04/2007 22:48

Thankyou ebenezer

chocolatechipmonkey · 17/04/2007 00:02

preggerspoppet, I know my children, inside and out from the minute they were born. I have phoned their creche at different times of the day. I have turned up unexpectedly. In 10 years of being a working parent I have rarely entered a creche to the wail of an unhappy child. And I know when I pick them up whether or not they have had a good day. We WOHMS are not devoid of instinct, you know.

ebenezer · 17/04/2007 07:36

just before i abandon my children and rush off to work!!!..... totally agree, chochipmonkey. Instinct plays an enormous part in parenting and shouldn't be underestimated. Of COURSE you can tell whether your lo is tired/grumpy/happy/excited lobg before they can put it in words. In fact sometimes they're more honest before they start talking - my school age kids frequently say 'nothing' when i ask what they've been up to !!!! The idea that you have to be with you DCs 24/7 to know how they are feeling is a total myth, peddled by control freaks who can't bear to let anyone else play a role in their children's lives! So there! And with that I'm off to earn a crust!

OrmIrian · 17/04/2007 07:57

panicpants - I totally agree with you. It's so simple - if I didn't work we couldn't keep a roof over out childrens' heads, couldn't feed or clothe them, let alone do the things that they enjoy. So.....it makes no difference how many ignorant articles I read or how many bigoted opinions I hear (from the priviledged position of financial choice), I will still have to work. So I ignore them. Please feel free to do the same

tigermoth · 17/04/2007 08:10

The times I felt most distant from my baby or toddler were when I was worried and preoccupied. Worrying about finances, worrying about my future, or just worrying for no reason.

I found worrying about paying bills was terribly draining and affected my parenting skills and ability to make play doh shapes with my toddler big time.

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 08:25

panicpants I think it is well worth talking about.

It is not rightthat you don't have the choice.

Every mother should have the choice for sah with their pre-schoolers imo. it is a crazy idea that the government will top up earnings and pay a huge chunk towards childcare costs for parents to go off and work anywhere for £4 per hour but they wont give any handouts for parents to afford to sah.

it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

maybe if people stopped bitching and griping and being so defensive, then these debates might actually go somewhere to create more choice. mn is a powerful place.

Taylormama · 17/04/2007 08:27

chocolatechip - think you hit the nail on the head there ... i KNOW when DS is miserable/happy etc. When DS started at nursery i went to pick him up at all sorts of random times and NEVER saw anything which i was unhappy with ... as for that hamster comment

Taylormama · 17/04/2007 08:30

preggerspoppet - where is this huge slush fund that i can get my hands on to help pay for my DS's childcare - i don't get tax credits or any help. I get some money taken out of my salary which goes directly to my nursery (has the benefit of not paying tax)and err that is it ....

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 08:45

I was referring to the millions of parents that do get help towards chilcare/tax credits.

If you are fortunate that you earn more than the tc threashold meaning that you don't qualify for childcare help then I might argue that you do have some kind of choice?

but, perhaps you feel that you don't have a choice then in which case I would start with the suggestion that your partner (assuming you have one)/your income be releived of tax in order for one of YOU to care for your kids. It might not give you much but it would be a start, and it would not be forever.

Failing that, I'm no economist but I am quite sure that a whole lot of money is miss-spent in this country.

but then my opinions all rest on my beleif that kids should be given the opportunity to be raised in the home by their family (including extended).

I'm more than happy for anyone else to have a diferent opinion, but isn't it only right that parents should have the choice?

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 08:55

It's an attitude change I'm really after (from the government) at present there is no value placed on sah. no encouragement, no incentive. it is all about figures.

I personally beleive that emotional nurturing is something that can only be offered by someone who loves that child, not someone who is being paid to look after them. I also don't feel that it is possible to emotionally nurture your child during the hours that you are at work...

and it is also my veiw that kids who don't receive emotional nurturing will suffer.

of course I'm gonna be bombarded with posts telling me all about the sahm who have screwed up their kids by giving them too much love.

but this is just the background opinion to why I feel strongly we need changes.

by all means disagree with my belief but surely a lot of working mums would like to be offered more choice?

preggerspoppet · 17/04/2007 08:56

(will suffer in some shape or form, perhaps not until adulthood etc etc. not necessarilly on a day to day basis.)

FloatingLikeALeadBalloon · 17/04/2007 10:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Taylormama · 17/04/2007 10:15

preggerspopper - i may be "fortunate" to earn above the threshold but i am not rich - i earn about £1,000 above the threshold - hardly makes me Rockerfeller!!

Paying a mortgage, council tax, and my utility bills as well as travel to work eats up most of my salary (i live in the south east one of the most expensive places to live in the country).

As for your assertation that children should be raised by their extended families - my PILs and parents all still work!! They need to ... and don't even get be started on your assertation about emotional nuturing.

satine · 17/04/2007 10:18

Preggerspoppet, I completely agree. I have read actual governement papers which talk about giving financial help to women "so that they are not trapped at home". How bloody sad that national policy takes such a dim view of bringing up your own children.

I know that it's not always fair to isolate an individual comment from a thread, but "I know my children. I have phoned their creche at different times of the day. I turn up unexpectedly" makes me feel very .

contentiouscat · 17/04/2007 10:18

Preggerspoppet you are going to get flamed you know LOL, I only made a few comments about how I choose to live my life and got the "personal insult" treatment. This is a debate and sorry but I thought the idea of a debate is to hear ALL sides of the story...how dull if we all agreed - I do think its a shame some people have to be so rude though.

I think the people who are being most defensive on here are those who perhaps would not CHOOSE to work if they could afford not to and have a subconcious guilt about doing so - there is no right or wrong though you do what is best for your child and to support the life you want to lead.

My mum was a SAHM mum for a while but was MISERABLE and really needed to go to work and, as she had family support for childcare, that worked better for her and for us. This is a very different world now:

  1. Our parents are working later into their lives than the last generation did - so that childcare support is more often that not unavailable.
  1. My parents struggled to cope on what my dad earnt: we had no holidays abroad in fact often no holiday at all, no telephone, no sky TV, minimum heating to save money, no luxuries - these are things which we all aspire to now and are made to feel as though we are failing if we do not supply.
  1. From being told that women "should be" at home we are now told women "should be" working...then we are told we fail as people if we dont work and contribute to society and our households, we fail as mothers if we do.
  1. The rise of the single parent family means many people have even less support.

We will only know if these "childcare experts" are right or wrong when we see how our generation of children turn into adults.

Some children thrive in childcare, some (including mine) are less confident and need more parental support. I choose to stay at home but trust me I make a LOT of material sacrfices to do so.

Before I get flamed I KNOW a lot of people HAVE to work to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table.

bossykate · 17/04/2007 10:19

"Personally if I did not want to spend time with and raise my child myself then I would have just got a hamster and continued my thrilling and lucrative career."

and you say people patronise you eh?

bossykate · 17/04/2007 10:20

where is xenia when you need her?

Blu · 17/04/2007 10:21
bossykate · 17/04/2007 10:24
FloatingLikeALeadBalloon · 17/04/2007 10:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Issymum · 17/04/2007 10:38

bossykate: Where indeed?

The SAHM v WOHM is an invalid debate as it entirely disregards the role and responsibilities of fathers. The debate around whether and to what extent children's well-being might be damaged by a certain amount and/or type of childcare is a valid one, admitting of course that for many families there is little to no choice. Whilst the debate is valid, there are so many variables in the care a child might receive inside or outside the home that personal anecdotes are pointless and the sort of paid-by-the-word tripe dished up in opinion columns of papers, positively pernicious. Nothing less than several large, very long and extremely well-constructed studies can real help us reach any general conclusions worth discussing.

And for Mnet, I think that any Mnetter, WOHM or SAHM who has been on MNet for a couple of years or more may well have simply lost the will to engage in this debate for the umpteenth time. It's probably illusory, but each time we rehearse the arguments, the voices seems more shrill and less well-informed than the last time.

In fact, I'm rather hoping that Xenia has come to the conclusion that it's time to leave the field for a new cohort of WOHMs and that we can welcome her to the fold of WOHMs who have said everything they are ever going to say on this matter and just do what they do, confident that they have made the right decision for their family in their circumstances.

contentiouscat · 17/04/2007 10:47

Hang on Kate ill just go get some salt & vinegar to go with that chip on your shoulder LOL

The patronisation I was referring to was the implication that a SAHM cannot hold a conversation that IS insulting to other people. My comment regarding how I choose to live MY life - was not applied to ANYONE else or implied criticism of how you else chose to live your life.

Weirdly enough the thesaurus definition: Patronise: assist, defend, favour, help, maintain

tarantula · 17/04/2007 11:01

Well said Issymum Why indeed are fathers almost always neglected when this discussion comes up. Last I heard 10% of UK families had a man as the primary carer and the figure was rising rapidly. In addition to this there are a large number of families where both parents work parttime/irregular hours so as to cover childcare. and yet these debates seem to over look this taime and time again