What should trans people actually do?

[BTT]

I'm making the assumption that gender identity exists and that there can be a mismatch between it and sex which will likely cause distress and a desire for trans people to find a safer and more comfortable place in society somehow.

I'm talking about practical measures to minimize problems for trans and non-trans people. Please respond only if you have some reasonable ideas.

You beleive otherwise? Based upon what?

Belong - that means the spaces associated with your sex as opposed to places you feel you belong to which is different

And that is the space designated for your biological sex. not whatever is going on inside your head.

Read the OP again.

OP asked for examples for practical measures to minimize problems for trans and non-trans people, saying "please respond only if you have some reasonable ideas" and also starts off assuming that Gender Ideology beliefs are true.

@SchoolOfCool gave a number of entirely equivalent analogies for other areas of tension between different groups and how stupid it would sound if you asked for ideas for how people could co-exist in peace if and only if you accept that one side or the other is correct.

What we need is ideas for how both schools of thought can coexist without assuming that one side is correct and the other side are nasty and malevolent.

oh goodie, we are going to hear about clownfish now, yes?

<claps hands excitedly>

Stick to the law for a change. If asked to leave, leave without that aggressive behaviour. Get therapy to learn to live with your dysphoria. Think of others. Stop the manipulation and blackmailing.

If you want all sex based protections to be removed by law, campaign for it. Don't use the 'it applies to everyone but I am special' reasoning.

"Compel speech" - you mean, be polite? Respectful? I've met a lot of people who think being forced to stop calling Black men 'boy' is compelled.speech and who insist they should be allowed to be homophobic. Deliberately disrespecting trans people is no different.

Where are all the people who think being forced to stop calling black men 'boys'? Do they go to another school?

In any case, adult men of whatever colour are not boys so these hordes of homophobic racists they are being 'compelled' to speak the truth, which is the total opposite of compelling people to call a man a woman.

I feel disrespected when a man appropriates womanhood, but obviously as a boring cunty type of woman that just makes me a hateful bigot.

Kudos for bringing racism and homophobia into the argument though...

Stop rewriting history (see claims about the Stonewall Riots and lesbians not nursing gay men during the AIDS epidemic).

Stop bringing LGB into it. We are nothing to do with you. LGB without the T.

Stop invading women's spaces, sports, jobs, organisations, meetings, dating sites and events.

Stop insisting everyone play along. They are not and never will be women (or transmen, men).

Stop making up new words to accommodate their made-up ideology. 'Cis', 'they/ them' and 'deadnaming' are the equivalent of Newspeak.

I think trans people need to start being honest about what they want.

The idea is that they feel as if they are the opposite sex, and wish to live as such. They say this is just living a quiet life.

But they cannot be the opposite sex. Its not a reasonable adjustment for everyone they come into contact with to ignore their sex and pretend that they are the other. It doesn't matter if it preferred pronouns or use of single sex spaces, no one else should be troubled with this.

As soon as trans people make demands on others - changing language, using the wrong single sex services, attempting to remove sex based laws, they are involving others and everyone else has a right to highlight what they are doing.

and who is going to fund such a dramatic change to spaces - every swimming pool needs to add another changing room, every small business needs to add additional loos, not feasible - and esp. not at the behest of a group of people who already have spaces set aside for them - 'trans women' into the gents and 'trans men' into the ladies...

I was quite shocked by this video; I thought Mr Menno was his usual, polite self but was absolutely vilified by this couple. The partner came across as very aggressive.

It's a big assumption that gender identity actually exists, but if it does, it is only relevant to the individual in question therefore should not have any bearing on public spaces or treatment by services who provide sex based provisions.
Basically, dress, talk and behave how you like (within reasonable bounds) but don't expect your gender identity to impact on anyone else.

Don’t act surprised when people ignore the guidance because no other spaces are provided. Wasn’t it the GLP vs EHRC case where the judge said forcing a trans person into a space for their birth sex could be gender reassignment discrimination?

So if there were a mixed sex toilet in addition to the single sex ones, would you use it? Or is it all about the validation.

the supreme court made clear that facilities set aside for single sex were based on biological sex - can't get higher than the supreme court - that overrules any other comments...

if you provide a gents and a ladies - no-one is excluded because no-one has ever been born who wasn't one or the other... and the supreme court judges made very clear that for the purpose of single-sex exclusions etc then GRA is irrelevant

Sure, but they also said trans people were still protected in the equality act because of gender reassignment. Forcing a trans person to use a space for the biological sex could be gender reassignment discrimination, and trans people can’t be left with no spaces to use, so it follows that alternative unisex provision must be provided

No.

Lack of additional unisex provision may be discriminatory, but a space that can be used by both sexes is just a mixed sex space. Lack of single sex provision may also be discriminatory.

More accurately, those with the protected characteristic of 'Gender-Re-assignment' have specific protections. Nowhere in the act is the term 'trans' ever used.

Following up from the last line of my previous post: What we need is ideas for how both schools of thought can coexist without assuming that one side is correct and the other side are nasty and malevolent.

I am reminded of the Dr Who episode where the Doctor resolves an intractable conflict between humans and (human mimicking) aliens by making the negotiators forget whether they were human or alien for the duration of the negotiation so that each side had an imperative to find a solution that was scrupulously fair to both sides. What we need in this situation is for legislators to create a framework that makes no assumptions about whether or not gender identity exists so that each person can go about their lives in peace.

Perhaps "what Trans people should do" is to develop proposals for what might work for them with a start point of not assuming that their understanding of gender is correct and therefore concieving of flexible arrangements that don't demonise people who have a different understanding.

In my experience small businesses tend to have unisex loos. I think there is probably adequate provision already. However, people can certainly have different opinions about what is adequate. The main point is that you can't have mixed sex single sex toilets. At least not in this dimension.

I think trans people should continue to wear and present however they want and use whatever name they want. It is very rude not to call someone by the name they prefer.

For sport, trans people should look for recreational sports that accept both men and women. Unfortunately they need to accept that if they are elite athletes they may not be able to play in the opposite sex category but are still eligible for their own sex category. So, for example, Lia Thomas could have continued trying out for the male team. Or they could have accepted they were no longer able to swim for their university. Happens lots of people for all sorts of reason - from injury to wanting to do a semester abroad etc.

With changing rooms/toilets they should obey the law and if they want campaign for third spaces/individual spaces. Women's historical campaigns for public toilets could give them a lot of lessons learned on this one.

For jail/prison they should campaign for safe spaces within the male prison or overall safer prisons. Again lots of prison reform lessons learned out there.

Overall they should work for acceptance of people looking different/not conforming to gender stereotypes. I understand it is a pain to have to work for things but, again, lots and lots of lessons they can learn from the women's movement. They don't have to reinvent the wheel. The irony is that women would have been the first to help them out with these campaigns.

People with a GRC are protected from discrimination but being asked to use the facilities that correspond to their sex is not discrimination. People who self ID into whatever aren't protected even from reality and 'Trans' isn't a protected characteristic.

but that wouldn't be discrimination

discrimination is when one group is not treated the same as others... so if all men are provided with a male loo - then they have been treated the same

arguably if you tell those with a grc to go here... instead - that might be discrimination.

all those with a grc are still male if born male, for these purposes and the supreme court confirmed that - effectively invalidating grcs as the one thing they have been confirmed to not do in law is prove that the holder has changed sex - as they need to continue to use their biological sex's spaces (the one thing their holders wanted them for is to 'prove' that have changed sex!)

What we need is ideas for how both schools of thought can coexist without assuming that one side is correct and the other side are nasty and malevolent.

I'm not sure what you mean by gender critical, but if it's just that sex cannot be changed and is sometime relevant, what is the alternative school of thought?

Going back to the OP, if you choose to make your life more complicated than it need be, the onus is on you to find solutions that are legal and not expect others to do it for you. So, OP, should you ever come back, did you ask any trans people what ideas they had?