What should trans people actually do?

[BTT]

I'm making the assumption that gender identity exists and that there can be a mismatch between it and sex which will likely cause distress and a desire for trans people to find a safer and more comfortable place in society somehow.

I'm talking about practical measures to minimize problems for trans and non-trans people. Please respond only if you have some reasonable ideas.

Why is this women's problem to solve? In case you weren't aware, women's rights have been won slowly over centuries. And we still don't have equality!

Trans activism is the rights campaign with friends in high places. Power, influence, networks and reach that feminism could only dream of. Use it to ask for extra unisex provisions!

"The evidence from the Ministry of Justice proves that within the male prison population with a sex offence conviction, a greater % of those offenders identify as transwomen than do not."

No it doesn't. According to the evidence linked in this post, the male prison population with a sex offence conviction was 13234, of which 76 identified as trans women. That's less than 1%, not more than 50%.

I think what you meant to say was that within the male prison population that identify as transwomen, a greater % of those offenders have a sex offence conviction than do not. This is supported by the linked evidence.

No.

Unisex means a single occupancy facility that can be used by either sex.

I do also think people will have different opinions on when a service should be mixed sex and when it should be single sex and I don't see a problem with making these arguments in good faith.

I just don't think it's possible to have a mixed sex single sex facility.

Surely it would be full of all the women who regularly say that they have no problem with men in their toilets? Or would that be the wrong kind of validation as they wouldn't be women who would feel uncomfortable or intimidated?

If you had a son or daughter that had identity issues would you be so harsh?

This! As well as dressing however they choose and having their hair/makeup/ appearance however they want.

How is this suggestion harsh?

Do you think people who identify as trans are somehow unable to do this?

Needless to say, chasingthesunshine didn't answer. Which tells me a lot, none of it good.

Long before trans was such a headline issue, in the 90s, a business acquaintance of mine transitioned from male to female.

An email was sent by his employer, informing those of us who had dealt with him regularly, that "Alan" would, from the start of January, be known as "Alice". Alice would continue to perform the role of project manager with their complete support and they trusted there would be no need for any further enquiry.

And that was it. No legal threats over pronoun confusion, no demands to use specific toilets, no beligerent insistence over anything.

I continued to work with Alice for several years and the subject was never mentioned again. I think Alice realised that quiet professionalism was her best chance at being accepted. Her employer was equally professional, but without upsetting anyone.

It is the most logical approach. I don't advertise my sexuality at work. It is no one's business but mine, and nothing to do with my employer. I have no desire to know any one else's sexuality at work either. Beyond the actual name change, there was nothing to discuss. It was none of my business because it did not intrude on the rights or the safety of the several hundred women who worked on the site.

I disagree - we already have what works...
we have men & men's spaces
we have women & women's spaces
the law and society is already set up correctly...

just because someone / some folk don't want to play by society's rules for whatever reason doesn't mean that there are now two sides...

think of it like a circle - there is one inside and one outside - society is inside and has worked perfectly well for 1000s of years...

people have a choice to step outside - but then they are outside society, they don't get to step outside and declare that now both are equally valid and we must compromise... society is justified in continuing as it always has done...

the biggest challenge we have is that society has changed from

person A has an issue / worry / concern / feeling / emotion....
person A needs to take responsibility for dealing with that...
society will help

to person A has an issue / worry / concern / feeling / emotion
society needs to change to meet person A's issue (and the louder someone shouts the more others have to change even to their detriment)

this has allowed any person - sensible or not to demand changes
this ego-centric / selfish approach is not what society is about - society is a common approach where we look after those with differences, but not by changing everyone else...

God, I missed that. What an odious thing for TPA to say.

A genuine analogy for the type of compelled speech represented by "preferred pronouns" would be someone from a historically enslaved race feeling social pressure or even an employment direction to call someone from their enslaving race "Master" because it aligns with that person's self image and beliefs.

Because, as Genderists refuse to ackowledged, there are two people involved in a trans person's self image - the trans person, and the person of the group they claim to have identified into.

Accepting the perspective of the first person only about what it means to be the second person is an act of aggression and negation, not acceptance.

I have no problem if anyone wants to suggest changes to society.

For a long time women were considered the property of men (and still are in some societies).

I just want arguments to have some connection to reality.

very fair point! and there are definitely issues with and concerns over many parts of society...

however the difference is that reality tells us that men and women are equal - however society is constructed, whereas reality also tells us that you can't change sex...

So because you met one man who wasn't a total arsehole, we must assume that all trans people are lovely and respectable and women ar making a fuss over nothing?

Did 'Alice' continue to use the men's toilets? If he didn't, then he did intrude on the rights and safety of the hundreds of women who worked at the site. Just because he wasn't agressive or intimidating to you, it doesn't mean that all the other women had the same opinion.

Being trans has nothing to do with sexuality but if you think it does then Alan should have kept his desire to pretend to be a woman to himself.

This. Certainly in the last few years a transgender athletes games could've been launched with all the same events are the Oylmpics.

But it hasn't and nobody seems to be campaigning for it. Which is strange as some people are more than capable of doing so, particularly when you think about how loudly they shouted for womens sports to be an open to all who identify as one event. Looking at you, Tom Daly...

A lot to unpick here, starting with the fact that no one “transitions from male to female”.

What do you mean by “pronoun confusion”?

Men, including those called Alice, are referred to as “him” or “he”. Was Alice happy with that?

Which toilets did Alice use? How do you know no one was upset by him?

And when they had an open event at a Masters swimming competition, precisely zero people entered. As the validation wasn't there.

The most helpful thing is for a trans person to look convincing in their chosen gender. That way they don't have to put up with Mumsnetters wittering on about lavatories. And no, being transgender is not about hair length, having unconventional taste in clothes or using a gender neutral name. The transgender professionals I know are very careful not to give offence or make people uncomfortable. They are certainly not exposing themselves in changing rooms to all and sundry.

So how would a “transperson” look convincing?

What ‘transwomen’ do though, really?

Is there a single TW in the public eye who actually passes (and I mean when you see them moving and speaking)? Even among those who were puberty blocked? Because I’ve asked this before and there’s never been a convincing suggestion.

Transmen can be slightly more convincing, at first glance anyway.

convincing means looking like what you are... it can't change who you are...

so a 'trans woman' dressed as a 'man' would be convincing - because they are male...

a 'trans woman' dressed as a woman would be somewhere on a scale between confusing and deceptive.

First post nails it as usual!

Are Mumsnetters allowed to witter on about prisons and the need for comparators in discrimination law and the impact of sex on sport and the need for sex specific health care?

The key purpose of the Equality Act is to prevent unlawful discrimination, and even if humans were not so obviously dimorphic and male violence against women ended tomorrow, women would still require sex specific rights that men don't and it would still be necessary to protect women from discrimination. Are women allowed to have legislation that protects them from sex based discrimination, or is that just too irritating?

It's so tiresome that women are expected to sort everything out for everyone. If TW were women, they'd take a shift in doing this. But they aren't, so they don't.

And when women do, like FWS, they get vilified for it.

The misogyny is so boring.

I don't think trying to dupe or intimidate people is the right or helpful thing to do. Why do people think this is in any way the best course of action? It is like the trans activists on Reddit gloating how they make women uncomfortable by going into womens toilets. Despicable behaviour.