Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #68

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims were of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claimed to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and after a prolonged process judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025. That judgment is being appealed and an appeal hearing is expected to take place in 2027.

A second Employment Tribunal, Sandie Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing, has just been heard. The hearing started on Wednesday 23 September 2026 and ended on Thursday 1 October 2026. It is possible that a decision will be handed down before Christmas of this year.

Additional legal claims have been raised. Sandie Peggie is taking action against three senior managers who were witnesses in the first Employment Tribunal - Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson, against Carol Potter, the chief executive of NHS Fife, for victimisation, against NHS Fife for discrimination, and against its director of people and culture David Miller for harassment. In addition, Sandie Peggie is being investigated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council over fitness to practice.

The past proceedings were live tweeted by www.x.com/tribunaltweets. Tribunal Tweets are likely to be providing coverage in future proceedings. There's additional information on Tribunal Tweets' substack: www.tribunaltweets.substack.com/.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 61: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

Thread 62: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5562302-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-62 3 August 2026 to 24 September 2026

Thread 63: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5581909-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-63 24 September 2026 to 27 September 2026

Thread 64: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583133-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-64 27 September 2026 to 29 September 2026

Thread 65: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583663-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-65 29 September 2026 to 30 September 2026

Thread 66: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584074-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-66 30 September 2026 to 1 October 2026

Thread 67: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584523-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-67 1 October 2026 to ????

Even India Willoughby only said he had a cervix, never mentioned a vagina when he offered to show it to us.

As a country we seem to be taking a step back when it comes to our ideas around acceptance of differences.

I agree with you in relation to several minority groups, not just transgender people,

Focusing on transgender and gender part the biggest disservice done to transpeople was the no debate stance of Stonewall and others. The misrepresentation of what the EA2010 and GRA 2004 actually meant for employers and service providers. The introduction of the trans umbrella concept meant transvestites as a group have effectively disappeared - this was a very distinct group to transsexuals.

Had we as a society had a debate in 2004/2010 where all voices were recognised and respected things could have been very different. No debate and putting rapists like Karen White in a women’s prison to try and force change in society has backfired spectacularly.

What is happening now is we are having the debate that should have happened a decade + ago. The failure in leadership of politicians over this issue means the courts is where, very painfully and expensively for everyone, we are having the debate.

As a society we need to agree the ordinary meaning of words - sex, Woman, girl and female are already taken as are men, boys and male. They have the same ordinary meeting for millennia and trying to change them is not going to happen.

Gander is a word I am open to having a new definition.

To me the most disadvantaged are de-transitioners with a GRC. As minimum the GRA needs amending to allow people with a GRC to revoke it and return their legal sex to accord with their biological sex.

The sooner we have the debate supported by clear legislation the better for everyone. I want trans, non-binary and gender non-conforming people to be welcome as part of society but not at the expense of women’s rights.

So a vagina only counts if the person was already female? Then the vagina isn’t what makes someone female — being female is, and you haven’t said what that consists in. “People with a vagina” was the definition five minutes ago. What’s replaced it?

And twist.

Biology has always defined female people as being those who have a body formed from birth around the production of large gametes even if those gametes are never produced.

It is why ‘cis’ is a meaningless term. I believe Tandora showed us just how meaningless when they reminded us that male athletes with DSDs are cisgender women.

So, can talk about chromosomes all you want however they are only part of the many body variations that fall under the definition.

And the definition doesn’t include male people have extreme body modification to acquire bodies that they consider female. It is actually misogynistic to describe ‘female’ as being a male person’s near enough is good enough body modifications.

Remember Bunbury, anyone?

*@Lacksie

Do you believe that a female patient can give consent that is with full knowledge and no coercion if a male doctor (who they expect to understand the difference between male and female humans and who they trust would act ethically and that they have to trust to treat them) presented themselves as being the female doctor that they requested?

It is a yes or no question. Do you believe they can give consent based on this scenario or not?

Indeed.

there seems to be much distraction being attempted to not answer a significant consent and safeguarding question.

Doesn't there just, now why would that be.

"NC So it's up to her to sya I dont feel comfy w you?
DU That's how it works. U dont know if she'd accept a TW. Y'd explain how exam works and stopping when patient wants to. Our job to make ppl comfy. It's approp for a dr to see this pat"

"DU ANy person of any GI can experience or undertake sexual trauma. They often dont disclose this, whoever they are. Every single clinician wld have to say "this is my sex, GI, are u happy w me" I apprec they might find it hard to see me. My job is gathering info and treating"

We can't see this out of context. Dr Upton confirmed that he sees himself as a biological woman because he isn't a robot and considers himself a woman. So even if a woman was brave enough to say "I'd like a biological woman to examine me", he'd say "At your service!" The only way he would acquiesce is if she was brave enough to say "I don't want you to examine me because I believe that you are male. Then he'd report her for her bigotry. So no winning for her.

You need to take a course in logic.

Men who have genital surgery do not get a vagina installed they have their penis inverted to create a cavity that is not a vagina

I suspect this is the continuation of a childish attempt to fill the thread with po-mo nonsense. I can't believe that even @Lacksie has any faith in what he posts.

<wanders off to another thread>

Well no. Because if you use pomo and queer theory to support all your claims then you can make any claim about language changing so that reference terms mean whatever you want them to mean.

So, some one will use that word 'vagina' to mean a cavity in someone's groin rather than the proven and established reference term of an organ that forms an integral part of the reproductive system of a female human. And that person will then use gaslighting tactics to support their claim that it can refer to an inserted piece of flesh to create a cavity in a male groin.

That is the way it works see.

And we know it must be what the people who have transgender identities understand it to be, because the posters doing this have nominated themselves as spokespeople for people with transgender identities. Even when they don't have a transgender identity themselves. Peter Tatchell and Helen Webberley are great examples of people who do this off MN.

Effectively a 'neo-vagina' is a blind fistula - which has to be manually manipulated on a daily basis lest it close up in an attempt to heal itself.

A vagina is a functioning organ, not a cavity.

This argument reminds me of a small child's gotchas.

"It's bed time!"
"you're not going to bed, so it's not really bed time"
"It's your bed time"
"But if I stay up an extra minute then it wasn't my bed time either"
"Go to bed!"
"What if I get up again to go the toilet, then I have to have another bed time"
<picks up small child and puts them to bed>

It's so fucking childish.

You are redefining words again. A surgically constructed fuck hole is not a vagina. A male is not female. Cosmetic surgery & hormones just produce an unconvincing pastiche of the opposite sex they don't literally change a person's sex..

Aha! I think I've finally worked out what pps think defines being male an female.

From a GC/ "sex realist" point of view-
A male is anyone who disagrees with me as I have insight into the universal "female perspective". ☺️

I have no idea at all why... but this song about magic mushrooms popped into my head when reading certain posts on this thread.

Now you can enjoy it too. The posts are certainly improved by being read in this rhythm and tune.

You go away and believe that if you wish afer all it fits perfectly with your other completely nonsensical beliefs.

AAAAAAAY

👍🏼

As with my other "beliefs" I arrived at it through empirical observation. It seems common practice on these threads to call me "he" and insist I'm male, when I say things they don't like. 😝

Fabulous, very happy for you.

Exactly, that’s what TRAs think is reasonable, for a woman, perhaps distressed, scared, in pain or all three, to actually have to call out that these men aren’t women, preferably by telling them why it’s so important to them to have a female HCP, and why they asked in the first place. When you see it like that, it’s hard to unsee or handwave away the misogyny and lack of empathy and that’s why I don’t view Upton or his defenders as morally upstanding individuals, despite all the nonsensical gaslighting and fawning people do.

It's a wonder the human race survived at all.

Mushroom cat is judging you and looking foward to the day cats become the dominant species on Earth

Honestly - why are you wasting time trying to redefine male and female, or in trying to convince people that somehow human beings can undergo a process of trans-substantiation from one sex to the other?

Sex is one the fundamental organisational principles of life on earth and always has been - regardless of human imagination and fancies to the contrary.