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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie: Employment Tribunal, associated legal claims, and related matters - thread #67

514 replies

nauticant · 01/10/2026 18:23

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims were of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claimed to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and after a prolonged process judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025. That judgment is being appealed and an appeal hearing is expected to take place in 2027.

A second Employment Tribunal, Sandie Peggie vs Royal College of Nursing, has just been heard. The hearing started on Wednesday 23 September 2026 and ended on Thursday 1 October 2026. It is possible that a decision will be handed down before Christmas of this year.

Additional legal claims have been raised. Sandie Peggie is taking action against three senior managers who were witnesses in the first Employment Tribunal - Dr Kate Searle, Dr Maggie Currer and Esther Davidson, against Carol Potter, the chief executive of NHS Fife, for victimisation, against NHS Fife for discrimination, and against its director of people and culture David Miller for harassment. In addition, Sandie Peggie is being investigated by the Nursing and Midwifery Council over fitness to practice.

The past proceedings were live tweeted by www.x.com/tribunaltweets. Tribunal Tweets are likely to be providing coverage in future proceedings. There's additional information on Tribunal Tweets' substack: www.tribunaltweets.substack.com/.

Links to previous threads #1 to #60 can be found in this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 61: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5472628-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-61 8 January 2026 to 3 August 2026

Thread 62: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5562302-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-following-employment-tribunal-judgment-thread-62 3 August 2026 to 24 September 2026

Thread 63: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5581909-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-63 24 September 2026 to 27 September 2026

Thread 64: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583133-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-64 27 September 2026 to 29 September 2026

Thread 65: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5583663-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-65 29 September 2026 to 30 September 2026

Thread 66: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5584074-sandie-peggie-employment-tribunal-associated-legal-claims-and-related-matters-thread-66 30 September 2026 to 1 October 2026

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12
Mmmnotsure · Yesterday 10:10

DH:
If the facts are on your side, pound the facts.
If the law is on your side, pound the law.
If neither the facts nor the law are on your side, pound the table witnesses.

akkakk · Yesterday 10:10

Lacksie · Yesterday 09:46

Factually, the judgment did not say that “biological males should not be allowed to use female changing rooms”.

It held that “sex” in the Equality Act refers to sex at birth. The Act’s exceptions therefore allow providers to restrict services to those female at birth, where the statutory conditions are met and the restriction is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. This enables the lawful exclusion of trans women in those circumstances. It does not impose a blanket requirement to exclude them from every facility or service intended for women.

The EHRC guidance goes further by expressly stating that admitting trans women means a service is no longer single-sex for the purposes of the Act. That proposition is not expressly stated in the Supreme Court judgment itself. Whether it necessarily follows from the Court’s reasoning is a question of legal interpretation; it should not be presented as something the Court explicitly said. It didn't.

Edited

The EHRC guidance goes further by expressly stating that admitting trans women means a service is no longer single-sex for the purposes of the Act.

  • transwoman = man
  • man in a woman's space means you have two sexes in there - man and woman
  • two sexes means that a space is no longer single-sex
  • 2 ≠ 1 basic maths!

the average 5 year old understands that - doesn't really need a high court judge to state the obvious reality of a situation!

the only way you can square your own argument would be if you believed a man could change sex to being a woman - and as even the average 3 year old knows - that is not possible...

please start bringing some arguments based on fact / reality / truth.

Lacksie · Yesterday 10:13

MyThreeWords · Yesterday 09:53

Again, you seem selectively blind. You are cherry-picking single blocks in the jenga tower NC built. Naturally they don't sand up on their own.

It makes you seem cynical.

If you were arguing in earnest, with a commitment to looking at the actual logic of the case, it would be interesting to hear from you. This thread should be welcoming to sincere engagement from the 'other side'. But, at best, you simply haven't had time to follow the NC argument, and at worst you don't actually care. You just want to bang a tribal tambourine. And I can understand people on the thread thinking that a thread of GC people isn't the place to do that.

As above. No need for the ad hominem attacks please. Let's focus on the issues.

BlueLegume · Yesterday 10:13

I am not sure SP will win and will be gutted if she does lose. I am unclear why the whole debate falls into if you believe in sex reality then you are immediately considered a bigot on the wrong side of history. In the workplace, long retired now, I objected to leery men and would firmly stand my ground albeit then being labelled a prude or lacking a sense of humour. No, I just didn’t appreciate sexual comments in a professional setting. It did not mean I hated all men or was manphobic. I met my husband at work and he managed to not grope me when we were getting to know each other. He also called out the sexist idiots.

What for me is quite baffling is the phenomena that after billions of years and billions of men and women existing that we are now being expected to address people in day to day life as the opposite sex. The guardrails have completely fallen off society and now children are being dragged into the sorry mess we should be sitting up paying attention as to who is driving all this and asking why. What is the + in the ever growing acronym.

It can be discussed as post modernism, intersectional feminism, kindness, acceptance etc etc but messing with children and telling them they ‘might have been born in the wrong body’ is nothing short of a travesty.

Any politician going along with this is unfit for office. They are not ‘being kind’ they are blindly following what they see as progress.

The Giggle vs Tickle example in Australia is something else and history will hopefully expose the nonsense verdict there. Anyone supporting the man who has tried to destroy Sal Grover really needs some help.

PrancingPanda · Yesterday 10:13

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 10:02

The Northern General hospital one is good for this. The behaviour of the man in that case was alleged by colleagues to be quite similar to “Rose” in the Darlington nurses case. He lost on most points and won on only one point I think, that it was discrimination because a “cis woman” wouldn’t have been asked about undressing in the female changing room. I think the actual c word was used. Showing the capture there. Predates FWS 1 and 2. Complete bollocks (pun not intended), not appealed. I doubt it would have gone that way after the SC ruling.

But shouldn't the comparator (sp??) have been another man and not a 'cis' woman? As the claimant was a TW/male??

Lougle · Yesterday 10:15

TwoLoonsAndASprout · Yesterday 08:46

Oh, must we do this all again?

Sorry!

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 10:15

PrancingPanda · Yesterday 10:13

But shouldn't the comparator (sp??) have been another man and not a 'cis' woman? As the claimant was a TW/male??

Yes.

Lacksie · Yesterday 10:17

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 09:59

The judgement was not offering instructions in the way you propose. Its purpose was to clarify the law and the appropriate workings of the law in practice.

'Proportionality' is not assessed on an individual case by case basis. Once proportionality has been shown, then a 'single sex' service means exactly that.

( paragraph 171):

“The definition of sex in the EA 2010 makes clear that the concept of sex is binary, a person is either a woman or a man. Persons who share that protected characteristic for the purposes of the group-based rights and protections are persons of the same sex and provisions that refer to protection for women necessarily exclude men. Although the word “biological” does not appear in this definition, the ordinary meaning of those plain and unambiguous words corresponds with the biological characteristics that make an individual a man or a woman.”

The Supreme Court rejected as incoherent an approach that would include “trans women” (that is, biological men who identify as transgender) under the protected characteristic of being a woman, and “trans men” (that is, biological women who identify as transgender) under the protected characteristic of being a man. It said (at paragraph 172):

“We can identify no good reason why the legislature should have intended that sex-based rights and protections under the EA 2010 should apply to these complex, heterogenous groupings, rather than to the distinct group of (biological) women and girls (or men and boys) with their shared biology leading to shared disadvantage and discrimination faced by them as a distinct group.”

Once the gateway conditions are met for a woman’s service (at paragraph 221), the Supreme Court explains that:

“provided it is proportionate, the female only nature of the service would engage paragraph 27 [of Schedule 3] and would permit the exclusion of all males including males living in the female gender regardless of GRC status.”

Edited

I agree that the judgment clarifies the law rather than issuing instructions. That is precisely why I’m distinguishing what it permits from what it requires.

Paragraphs 171–172 concern the meaning of the protected characteristic of sex. I haven’t disputed that interpretation. And paragraph 221 says that, provided it is proportionate, the exception “would permit the exclusion”. That supports my point about lawful exclusion; it does not establish a blanket obligation to exclude trans women from every service intended for women.

Right folks, i'm very busy today, so really need to set a boundary about not arguing endlessly on mumsnet, as interesting as it is.

Hope you al have a lovely day and enjoy the sunshine.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · Yesterday 10:21

Lougle · Yesterday 10:15

Sorry!

It’s ok - I understand the temptation. I’m just getting very tired of the endless roundabout of “much more complicated” and “both sides” and whataboutisms, with not a shred of evidence or deep knowledge underpinning any of it.

Tbh, I just scroll past certain posters now. I have high blood pressure; I don’t need the irritation.

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 10:22

Lacksie · Yesterday 10:17

I agree that the judgment clarifies the law rather than issuing instructions. That is precisely why I’m distinguishing what it permits from what it requires.

Paragraphs 171–172 concern the meaning of the protected characteristic of sex. I haven’t disputed that interpretation. And paragraph 221 says that, provided it is proportionate, the exception “would permit the exclusion”. That supports my point about lawful exclusion; it does not establish a blanket obligation to exclude trans women from every service intended for women.

Right folks, i'm very busy today, so really need to set a boundary about not arguing endlessly on mumsnet, as interesting as it is.

Hope you al have a lovely day and enjoy the sunshine.

My question is to you...why are you trying to trying to find ways to include male people in female only spaces and categories? For what reason, what purpose, and for whose benefit?

MyThreeWords · Yesterday 10:23

Lacksie · Yesterday 10:13

As above. No need for the ad hominem attacks please. Let's focus on the issues.

I agree that simply name-calling, etc is unacceptable, but I'm trying to make a realistic critique of your approach. I don't think you are being attentive to the facts. And I think that is because you are motivated by the need to big-up one side of the argument. It is reasonable to state that.

I know lots of people are doing the same thing on the 'other side' (I also know that I am sometimes guilty of it myself - confirmation bias and all that). Clearly this thread generates a much stronger sense of SP's case being 'winning' than is probably the case.

But we should all still be guided by the need to be fully open to the facts. And , importantly, this thread has a dual function: it is for discussion AND it is a community thread of GC people. Someone made the analogy of you being an away supporter on the home stand at a football match. No one should treat you harshly; everyone should tolerate your visible support for the other team, but if you are angrily impugning the referee without cogent grounds, you can expect quite a bit of irritable pushback.

PrancingPanda · Yesterday 10:27

Shortshriftandlethal · Yesterday 10:22

My question is to you...why are you trying to trying to find ways to include male people in female only spaces and categories? For what reason, what purpose, and for whose benefit?

Seconded @Shortshriftandlethal

An answer please @Lacksie
When you've got time, no rush, thanks

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 10:28

Lacksie · Yesterday 10:17

I agree that the judgment clarifies the law rather than issuing instructions. That is precisely why I’m distinguishing what it permits from what it requires.

Paragraphs 171–172 concern the meaning of the protected characteristic of sex. I haven’t disputed that interpretation. And paragraph 221 says that, provided it is proportionate, the exception “would permit the exclusion”. That supports my point about lawful exclusion; it does not establish a blanket obligation to exclude trans women from every service intended for women.

Right folks, i'm very busy today, so really need to set a boundary about not arguing endlessly on mumsnet, as interesting as it is.

Hope you al have a lovely day and enjoy the sunshine.

There is no basis for a single sex space covered by that exception to exist as a mixed sex space. As you know, I’m sure.

prh47bridge · Yesterday 10:28

Lacksie · Yesterday 10:17

I agree that the judgment clarifies the law rather than issuing instructions. That is precisely why I’m distinguishing what it permits from what it requires.

Paragraphs 171–172 concern the meaning of the protected characteristic of sex. I haven’t disputed that interpretation. And paragraph 221 says that, provided it is proportionate, the exception “would permit the exclusion”. That supports my point about lawful exclusion; it does not establish a blanket obligation to exclude trans women from every service intended for women.

Right folks, i'm very busy today, so really need to set a boundary about not arguing endlessly on mumsnet, as interesting as it is.

Hope you al have a lovely day and enjoy the sunshine.

Except you are going beyond "distinguishing what it permits from what it requires" and failing to appreciate what the judgment actually says.

Paragraph 265(xiv) states clearly that the proper functioning of a single sex changing room requires a biological interpretation of sex. There is no way you can interpret that as saying that some biological males can use female changing rooms. It is clear that they cannot. A female changing room is for biological females only. If any men are allowed in, even if those men identify as female, it is a unisex changing room, not a female changing room.

The judgment is widely misrepresented by trans rights activists who repeatedly claim it does not say things it clearly does, or claim that it is unclear on points where the judges have taken several paragraphs to make it clear. If you really want to argue about the judgment you should try reading and understanding it first.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 10:29

TwoLoonsAndASprout · Yesterday 10:21

It’s ok - I understand the temptation. I’m just getting very tired of the endless roundabout of “much more complicated” and “both sides” and whataboutisms, with not a shred of evidence or deep knowledge underpinning any of it.

Tbh, I just scroll past certain posters now. I have high blood pressure; I don’t need the irritation.

I think that’s generally best.

BlueLegume · Yesterday 10:33

@Lacksie no body is forcing you to be on here. Very notable that when the going gets tough your response on this and other threads is that you are very busy/preparing a work presentation so can’t read the full thread/school run etc etc.

Been on MN a longtime and cannot recall many or any posters detailing how ‘busy’ they are when challenged by other posters.

You are genuinely on the wrong thread - this is a thread mainly of those of us despairing at the various Dr Upton and Rose Henderson situations. We are not here to be ‘convinced’ people can change sex and you must accept it/the SC ruling is wrong and I know better - we just care that women and their rights are being violated by this pernicious ideology.

And next up we care what boundary we will be expected to blur in terms of tinkering with healthy children's bodies when they need psychological support not medication and potential surgeries.

As someone else said it feels like you are an away supporter - great analogy. You deserve respect but equally your tone should respect our view of things.

No sex realist wants to harm trans people or be offensive to you. There just is no ‘gotcha’ you will deliver where the clouds separate and we all go ‘oh wow’ @Lacksie has now made me realise men can have a cervix and women can have a ps. Because they cannot and those two things form a huge part of what a man and a woman is. I am pre armed with no doubt you coming back saying men can be born without a ps and women without a cervix however they are still men and women.

I would suggest you would be better starting your own thread - the SP threads have run and run quite harmoniously and have felt like a safe space for us sex realists to air our views - which in the real world can see us labelled as phobic and bigoted.

MarieDeGournay · Yesterday 10:36

The SC ruling was useful in a very down-to-earth way: it re-asserted the established and accepted meaning of the words 'man' and 'woman'
the ordinary meaning of those plain and unambiguous words corresponds with the biological characteristics that make an individual a man or a woman.

There are often posts showing that some dictionaries, esp online ones, the Cambridge Online seems to be a fave, give not just the 'dictionary definitions' of words, but also their current usage in popular speech.

So 'sick' can mean 'good' as well as unhealthy, just as 'gear' meant good as well as...well all the things that gear can mean! - in popular speech in the 1960s.
These meanings are passing fads - what is the current status of 'dope', I wonder? does it still mean sick? or is it as hopelessly out of date as gear?

When laws were drafted using the words 'man' and 'woman', it is reasonable to say that they only meant established and accepted meaning, not the popular uses listed down the page a bit in the Cambridge Online Dictionary.

I know that laws can be updated as words change, for instance copyright law has had to keep up with new forms of recording/broadcasting technology

In Mandarim Records v Mechanical Copyright Protection Society (Ireland) Ltd,122 Barr J held that a Power CD which contained both sound recordings and other material including text and graphics, constituted a record within the meaning of the Copyright Act, 1963. He held that the fact that the framers of legislation would not have envisaged that the type of technology under consideration was not in itself a bar to the inclusion of the technology within an existing statutory framework. It was, he said, patently desirable that, where possible, advances in technology, even those which could not have been envisaged by the framers of an Act, should be accommodated in statutory interpretation by the courts. However, he held that this accommodation can be made only where the words of the provision were not strained beyond their ordinary meaning. Due regard must be paid to the structure and intent of the statute. [my emphasis]
Statutory Drafting and Interpretation : Plain Language and the Law
[Irish Law Reform Commission]

So 'advances in technology' may be accommodated in interpretation - but changing the 'ordinary meaning' of words is not acceptable, especially if it goes against the obvious intent of the law.

The UKSC came to the same conclusion about the meanings of 'sex' 'man', 'women', and although they only referred specifically to EA2010, the idea that a word can mean one thing in one law and the opposite in all others seems daft.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 10:37

prh47bridge · Yesterday 10:28

Except you are going beyond "distinguishing what it permits from what it requires" and failing to appreciate what the judgment actually says.

Paragraph 265(xiv) states clearly that the proper functioning of a single sex changing room requires a biological interpretation of sex. There is no way you can interpret that as saying that some biological males can use female changing rooms. It is clear that they cannot. A female changing room is for biological females only. If any men are allowed in, even if those men identify as female, it is a unisex changing room, not a female changing room.

The judgment is widely misrepresented by trans rights activists who repeatedly claim it does not say things it clearly does, or claim that it is unclear on points where the judges have taken several paragraphs to make it clear. If you really want to argue about the judgment you should try reading and understanding it first.

Edited

Very good, clear, explanation. It’s been said before to this poster in a number of different ways on this thread and others. Maybe it will land this time. It left GLP with egg on their face when they challenged the EHRC interim guidelines on this basis.

KittyWilkinson · Yesterday 10:37

PachacutisBadAuntie · Yesterday 08:55

If the RCN convince the judge that they offered the same level of support to Sandie as they would to any other member then every member's been wasting their subs!

Worth saying again. The RCN comes out of this looking incompetent, uncaring and not giving a shiny shit about the majority of women members whatever the Judge decides.

I always told union reps to look at The Issue not The Person. If someone is working in an unsafe environment, for example, you deal with that as the Issue, not how they conduct themselves on WhatsApp (which is a different matter entirely).

Sandi Peggie wasn't suspended for her WhatsApp messages, she was suspended for not consenting to having a man in raspberry scrubs in the single sex changing rooms. And he was furious at that, and plotted revenge.

The Issue was the SSS, the right to privacy and decency, and Upton's behaviour (enabled by management). The RCN failed to identify that as The Issue and deal with it effectively for Sandi and the wider membership. Rather than do that, Upton, Management, and the RCN representatives colluded to smear SP.

We see the same tactics in Darlington.

A paedophile who assaulted and racially abused a nurse attempting to get him sex appropriate treatment gets support from a few posters purely because she used the pronouns " he". The RCN have her " reflect" on her sins rather than defend her against the abuse.

GriseldaandMike · Yesterday 10:41

alcovecupboards · 01/10/2026 22:41

It appears Saint Sandie was scolded for the inconsistencies in her claims and there were a number of contradictions affecting the reliability of her evidence. And Cunningham seemed only able to attack the opposing barrister rather than the facts of the case. Not looking good for the racist joke making nurse.

I've several friends and a couple of relatives who are nurses/ midwives they are all lovely people. Do they deserve single sex spaces to change at work?

You might get a kick from punishing the 'bad' women but the impact is on all women, nice or 'nasty', young or old, black or white, all faiths or none. Women's rights belong to all women not a chosen few who pass a purity test.

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 10:55

I think it’s very worrying that many people think some people are unworthy of basic protections at work because they shared some ill advised jokes on a private WhatsApp.

How about a homophobic roofer who fell off a ladder which his employer knew wasn’t safe and was made quadriplegic? Is he not a fit person to be paid damages for life changing injuries?

I must say, be careful what you wish for. I bet we’d find some ill advised humour or comments on many peoples private chats with their friends. And the default for TRAs is threats and abuse of women they disagree with ideologically. We had examples of that from multiple TIMs in this hearing.

BlueLegume · Yesterday 11:00

@alcovecupboards does your example of SPs jokes extend to the TRAs posting about TERFs in a violent and derogatory manner or directing r*pe and death threats to JKR who uses her leverage to support women?

If you need examples I am happy to supply.

Lacksie · Yesterday 11:06

MyThreeWords · Yesterday 10:23

I agree that simply name-calling, etc is unacceptable, but I'm trying to make a realistic critique of your approach. I don't think you are being attentive to the facts. And I think that is because you are motivated by the need to big-up one side of the argument. It is reasonable to state that.

I know lots of people are doing the same thing on the 'other side' (I also know that I am sometimes guilty of it myself - confirmation bias and all that). Clearly this thread generates a much stronger sense of SP's case being 'winning' than is probably the case.

But we should all still be guided by the need to be fully open to the facts. And , importantly, this thread has a dual function: it is for discussion AND it is a community thread of GC people. Someone made the analogy of you being an away supporter on the home stand at a football match. No one should treat you harshly; everyone should tolerate your visible support for the other team, but if you are angrily impugning the referee without cogent grounds, you can expect quite a bit of irritable pushback.

If you think I’m not being attentive to the facts, or that my arguments aren’t cogent, then by all means say so — by pointing to the relevant facts and making the stronger argument.

Where I draw the line is at value-laden claims about my personal motivations or character: that I’m “cynical”, that I “don’t care”, that I’m acting in bad faith, and so on. That has no place in a civilised discussion.

You may read my posts and think, “God, that woman is stupid, cynical, unreasonable, unpleasant, a bad actor,” etc. That’s human. I very often have similarly uncharitable reactions to posts on these threads. But I don’t say those things to the poster, because I’m well aware that is contrary to the purpose of mumsnet and more importantly it undermine the purpose of discussion and, contributes nothing to the substantive issues.

So criticise my reasoning as robustly as you like. Show me where I’ve got the facts wrong. Show me where the logic doesn’t follow. but leave the ad hominem commentary out if it please.

ok stop Lacksie stop 😅🙈

GriseldaandMike · Yesterday 11:07

Ereshkigalangcleg · Yesterday 10:55

I think it’s very worrying that many people think some people are unworthy of basic protections at work because they shared some ill advised jokes on a private WhatsApp.

How about a homophobic roofer who fell off a ladder which his employer knew wasn’t safe and was made quadriplegic? Is he not a fit person to be paid damages for life changing injuries?

I must say, be careful what you wish for. I bet we’d find some ill advised humour or comments on many peoples private chats with their friends. And the default for TRAs is threats and abuse of women they disagree with ideologically. We had examples of that from multiple TIMs in this hearing.

The thing is these people aren't just saying the 'bad' people don't deserve protection, they are saying no women deserve SSS in order to punish the 'bad' ones. They aren't suggesting a SSS for 'lovely' nurses plus another space for Trans id males and women who don't meet the 'nice' threshold, all women however 'nice' however damaged by men, however deserving don't get to change without the potential of men watching and that it all the fault of the 'bad' nurse.

RoyalCorgi · Yesterday 11:10

Shouldn't the RCN simply have treated Sandie Peggie as a whistleblower, and supported her accordingly, because she pointed out that her employer was breaking the law on providing single-sex changing rooms?

Swipe left for the next trending thread