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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Two-year-old euthanised in Netherlands in first assisted dying case of its kind

548 replies

IwantToRetire · 28/09/2026 19:01

I'm not going to select any part of the article but just post the link for those who want to read
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/netherlands-infant-2-euthanised-assisted-37709218

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NullaEffugium · 01/10/2026 08:53

kxeil · 01/10/2026 08:47

Male cancer patients, older adults, and those dealing with advanced illness, uncontrolled pain, or physical deterioration show disproportionately higher rates of fatal self harm. Women are more likely to chose assisted dying.

Women with terminal illnesses are less likely to choose assisted dying than are men. Just like women are less likely to commit suicide.

You can’t make direct comparisons between those choosing assisted dying with those committing suicide. The circumstances that lead to each are profoundly different.

Lexibletheflexible · 01/10/2026 08:54

Chicaontour · 01/10/2026 08:49

Ir does feel very very tilted towards GC feminists.

Some users definitely believe that FWR is a GC forum/board and that is why they treat anyone with other views as intruders.

kxeil · 01/10/2026 09:06

NullaEffugium · 01/10/2026 08:53

Women with terminal illnesses are less likely to choose assisted dying than are men. Just like women are less likely to commit suicide.

You can’t make direct comparisons between those choosing assisted dying with those committing suicide. The circumstances that lead to each are profoundly different.

You can’t make a fair comparison as men are more likely to die from unassisted suicide.

kxeil · 01/10/2026 09:18

NullaEffugium · 01/10/2026 08:51

Parliament has chosen, repeatedly, not to legalise it. So when are you going to respect the decision of our democracy which represents the will of the people?

I do accept Parliament’s decision, but I still want assisted dying to be legalised.

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/10/2026 09:27

XelaM · 30/09/2026 18:17

What quality of life does for example a double-incontinent dementia sufferer really have? Why would you want to continue living like that?

Edited

My father is doubly incontinent ( with Dementia) and in a care home...and no, he would never have chosen or wanted to be in this condition ( who would?), but he is. He cannot recall what happened two hours ago but he is still a responsive human being who can laugh, feel angry, recall his past life and occupation, and enjoy small pleasures.

He also has COPD and asthma and recently has a series of chest and urinary infections which have worsened his condition. We have agreed. a DNR ( Do not resuccitate) in the event of his heart stopping - though our best hope is that when the time comes he will die due to a specific cause, hopefully in his now familiar surroundings. His care will be managed until that time comes.

PollyNomial · 01/10/2026 09:34

NullaEffugium · 01/10/2026 08:51

Parliament has chosen, repeatedly, not to legalise it. So when are you going to respect the decision of our democracy which represents the will of the people?

A democracy is allowed to change its mind (or most of the population still wouldn't have the vote)

kxeil · 01/10/2026 10:09

NullaEffugium · 01/10/2026 08:24

Yes and this is another data point highlighting why this is not only a human issue but a feminist issue.

Many feminists argue that bodily autonomy is a fundamental right that extends to the end of life. Individuals should have the authority to make decisions about their own body, including how and when they die, especially in the face of terminal illness or unbearable suffering.

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/10/2026 10:10

Lexibletheflexible · 01/10/2026 08:54

Some users definitely believe that FWR is a GC forum/board and that is why they treat anyone with other views as intruders.

That is because that is its very origins, and why it came to be separated out from 'Feminist General Chat'. That is just a fact.

People who don't want to have discussions about the negative impact of trans ideology tend not to post here; and those that do know that and post anyway know they will be in a minority. If someone knowingly posts against the flow then they should expect mutliple counter arguments. Nobody who is a regular poster here is going to be swayed by arguments in favour of the validity of 'genderism'.

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/10/2026 10:14

kxeil · 01/10/2026 10:09

Many feminists argue that bodily autonomy is a fundamental right that extends to the end of life. Individuals should have the authority to make decisions about their own body, including how and when they die, especially in the face of terminal illness or unbearable suffering.

If anyone else is necessarily involved in your decision and/or has an active involvement in it then it is no longer autonomous. That is why we have time limits for abortion and why there are firm boundaries in place when it comes to the matter of assisted suicide.

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/10/2026 10:21

PollyNomial · 01/10/2026 09:34

A democracy is allowed to change its mind (or most of the population still wouldn't have the vote)

Interestingly, when it comes to the full legalisation of prostitution, which the Netherlands enacted, an increasing majority now believes it did not work or achieve what they thought it would. It hasn't stopped the trafficking or exploitation of women, or the other crimes associated with it; and furthermore it has degraded people's home environments and neighbourhoods. I suspect should a new vote be conducted there could be a good chance it would now be rejected.

kxeil · 01/10/2026 10:24

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/10/2026 10:14

If anyone else is necessarily involved in your decision and/or has an active involvement in it then it is no longer autonomous. That is why we have time limits for abortion and why there are firm boundaries in place when it comes to the matter of assisted suicide.

Edited

Assisted dying is fundamentally rooted in personal autonomy. Competent individuals have the right to direct their own lives, bodies, and final moments, especially when facing terminal illness or unbearable suffering.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 01/10/2026 10:26

NullaEffugium · 01/10/2026 08:51

Parliament has chosen, repeatedly, not to legalise it. So when are you going to respect the decision of our democracy which represents the will of the people?

So questions of interest can never be revisited?

The Equality Act should never have come into law because Parliament had passed disability legislation before by that reasoning.

A lot of people's hard work (mine included) would have gone to waste.

Lexibletheflexible · 01/10/2026 10:30

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/10/2026 10:10

That is because that is its very origins, and why it came to be separated out from 'Feminist General Chat'. That is just a fact.

People who don't want to have discussions about the negative impact of trans ideology tend not to post here; and those that do know that and post anyway know they will be in a minority. If someone knowingly posts against the flow then they should expect mutliple counter arguments. Nobody who is a regular poster here is going to be swayed by arguments in favour of the validity of 'genderism'.

Edited

From my understanding, it was for these sex and gender discussions to take place.

I'll compare it to football in pubs. Lots of pubs show football. Many pubs are neutral. All fans are welcome to come and watch. They can wear their shirts and cheer whoever they want. There might be more fans of the nearest team or one of the biggest teams, but they aren't more welcome than anyone else.

So this is just a place for drinking and football watching.

There are other pubs that are for home supporters only. You can watch football there but you cannot wear the shirt of other teams, especially if they are playing against the pub's favoured team. You cannot enthusiastically support opposing teams to their home team. They make it clear that it's a "Gunners' pub" and supporters have more rights to the space than non-suppprters.

This is also a place for drinking and football watching, but for Gunner's fans specifically.

kxeil · 01/10/2026 10:30

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/10/2026 10:21

Interestingly, when it comes to the full legalisation of prostitution, which the Netherlands enacted, an increasing majority now believes it did not work or achieve what they thought it would. It hasn't stopped the trafficking or exploitation of women, or the other crimes associated with it; and furthermore it has degraded people's home environments and neighbourhoods. I suspect should a new vote be conducted there could be a good chance it would now be rejected.

Edited

Sex workers are generally happier and more secure in countries where prostitution has been legalised.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 01/10/2026 10:40

Could you perhaps post the source of that information @Shortshriftandlethal ? I know that increased trafficking of women has caused real trouble in Amsterdam.

Locally they work quite hard to offer women viable alternatives to sex work.

NotrialNodeal · 01/10/2026 10:47

kxeil · 01/10/2026 08:41

Give people the choice. Just because you don’t agree with assisted dying and euthanasia, doesn’t mean other people do.

Plenty of people want it to be legalised in the UK. There are about 15 countries that already have some form of assisted dying.

People want to do all sorts of things that are unethical, but we don’t make everything legal just because someone wants the choice. “People should have the choice” isn’t, by itself, a good argument for legalising something. There have to be moral and legal limits, and I don’t believe intentionally ending someone’s life should be one of them.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 01/10/2026 11:00

The corollary to that is you accept that unendurable suffering that achieves nothing (such as this child, but there many other cases, often end of life rather than start) and a situation where loving partners have to end their spouse's lives to spare them, and the proportion of people with permanent disabilities that come from suicide attempts.

Which some people do find worth accepting. It seems though that very many people (certainly not all) who hold this view don't see the reality involved.

kxeil · 01/10/2026 11:37

NotrialNodeal · 01/10/2026 10:47

People want to do all sorts of things that are unethical, but we don’t make everything legal just because someone wants the choice. “People should have the choice” isn’t, by itself, a good argument for legalising something. There have to be moral and legal limits, and I don’t believe intentionally ending someone’s life should be one of them.

Things that used to be unethical are now ethical. Getting a divorce was once considered deeply unethical or illegal, but is now widely accepted.

Allowing a person to endure untreatable, excruciating pain when they desire a merciful release is cruel and inhumane.

NotrialNodeal · 01/10/2026 12:05

That comparison doesn’t hold. Divorce and euthanasia aren’t equivalent simply because society’s views can change. Divorce concerns ending a legal relationship; euthanasia is legally killing somone. The fact that an act was once condemned and is now accepted doesn’t, by itself, prove that every similar moral boundary should be moved.

Compassion for unbearable suffering matters—but so do consent, coercion, vulnerability, mistakes in diagnosis, and the possibility that a person’s circumstances can change. Calling continued life “cruel” doesn’t settle those questions; it assumes the very moral conclusion that still needs to be argued.

kxeil · 01/10/2026 12:18

NotrialNodeal · 01/10/2026 12:05

That comparison doesn’t hold. Divorce and euthanasia aren’t equivalent simply because society’s views can change. Divorce concerns ending a legal relationship; euthanasia is legally killing somone. The fact that an act was once condemned and is now accepted doesn’t, by itself, prove that every similar moral boundary should be moved.

Compassion for unbearable suffering matters—but so do consent, coercion, vulnerability, mistakes in diagnosis, and the possibility that a person’s circumstances can change. Calling continued life “cruel” doesn’t settle those questions; it assumes the very moral conclusion that still needs to be argued.

If doctors are willing to participate and if people are freely consenting to die, I don’t see a problem with assisted dying and euthanasia.

No one decides what is moral. It is a personal opinion.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 01/10/2026 12:38

Compassion for unbearable suffering matters—but so do consent, coercion, vulnerability, mistakes in diagnosis, and the possibility that a person’s circumstances can change. Calling continued life “cruel” doesn’t settle those questions; it assumes the very moral conclusion that still needs to be argued.

I'd agree wholeheartedly with your first sentence. It's very difficult. Mistakes in diagnosis happen, and will happen if euthanasia is legalized. Denying that they will is unrealistic.

About calling continued life in unbearable circumstances when a compassionate death is possible but denied 'cruel' though - that is a value judgement, but one that it is impossible to escape if faced with certain situations unless you are going to erase all judgements whatsoever, ever. These things are not abstract discussions. They are about living (and dying) individuals going through sometimes unbearable torment.

NotrialNodeal · 01/10/2026 12:49

kxeil · 01/10/2026 12:18

If doctors are willing to participate and if people are freely consenting to die, I don’t see a problem with assisted dying and euthanasia.

No one decides what is moral. It is a personal opinion.

Your argument collapses two separate questions: “Is someone consenting?” and “Is something morally permissible?”

Free consent matters, but consent alone cannot make an act morally acceptable. We don't normally argue that something becomes ethical simply because everyone involved agrees to it. The relevant question is whether there are independent reasons why the act should be permitted, especially when the act involves intentionally causing someone's death.

And “doctors are willing to participate” doesn't solve that problem either. Doctors can sincerely disagree about whether euthanasia is ethically justified. Their willingness to participate is evidence that they accept the practice, not proof that the practice is morally right.

The second claim is even more self-defeating: “No one decides what is moral. It is a personal opinion.” If morality is only personal opinion, then you have no basis for saying assisted dying is morally acceptable either. At most, you can say “I personally approve of it.” You can't move from personal preference to the conclusion that there is no moral problem with it.

In fact, saying “there is no problem” implicitly makes a moral judgment. You're not merely stating a preference; you're claiming that other people ought to regard the practice as permissible.

So the argument needs to do more than appeal to consent and personal opinion. It has to address the actual ethical questions: whether consent is genuinely voluntary in every case, whether vulnerable people can be pressured, whether intentionally causing death is morally different from allowing someone to die, what safeguards are necessary, and whether there are circumstances in which consent should not be sufficient.

You can absolutely argue for assisted dying. But “they consented, doctors agreed, and morality is subjective” doesn't establish the conclusion. It mostly avoids the difficult ethical questions that actually need answering.

kxeil · 01/10/2026 13:06

@NotrialNodeal ”You can absolutely argue for assisted dying. But “they consented, doctors agreed, and morality is subjective”

Under pure subjectivism, no universal rule exists to label the act of assisted dying and euthanasia as objectively "unethical" for everyone.

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/10/2026 13:38

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 01/10/2026 10:40

Could you perhaps post the source of that information @Shortshriftandlethal ? I know that increased trafficking of women has caused real trouble in Amsterdam.

Locally they work quite hard to offer women viable alternatives to sex work.

There have been multiple articles, discussions and revisions of the operation of the laws around 'sex work' and it is widely reported that many people have revised their former views based on the actual consequences and real life situations that have arisen......

Key academic articles and analyses tracking this evolution include:

  • Policy Change in Prostitution in the Netherlands: from Legalization to Strict Control by Joyce Outshoorn. Published in Sexuality Research and Social Policy , this paper details how initial 1999/2000 legalization aimed to normalize sex work and separate voluntary labor from forced exploitation. It documents how subsequent evaluations in the 2000s revealed persistent abuse and trafficking, prompting a political shift toward restrictive measures like compulsory registration and raising the legal age.
  • Regulation of Prostitution in the Netherlands: Liberal Dream or Growing Repression? published in the European Journal on Criminal Policy and Research . This study explores the paradox between the country's historic reputation for liberal tolerance (gedogen) and the mounting administrative controls, municipal licensing schemes, and state intervention targeting personal freedoms within the commercial sex sector.
  • Amsterdam’s Struggle to Improve Sex Worker Health published by 'Global Health Now'. This report examines the practical, on-the-ground realities and structural gaps facing sex workers post-legalization, highlighting how complex municipal rules, immigration constraints, and mandatory registration requirements affect marginalized and non-EU migrant workers trying to access health and social services.

https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/amsterdamnation

Amsterdamnation

Twenty five years of legalised prostitution in Holland has provided reams of evidence of its abject failure, resulting in more danger for the women, impunity for pimps and punters, and vile propaganda

https://juliebindel.substack.com/p/amsterdamnation

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/10/2026 13:46

Lexibletheflexible · 01/10/2026 10:30

From my understanding, it was for these sex and gender discussions to take place.

I'll compare it to football in pubs. Lots of pubs show football. Many pubs are neutral. All fans are welcome to come and watch. They can wear their shirts and cheer whoever they want. There might be more fans of the nearest team or one of the biggest teams, but they aren't more welcome than anyone else.

So this is just a place for drinking and football watching.

There are other pubs that are for home supporters only. You can watch football there but you cannot wear the shirt of other teams, especially if they are playing against the pub's favoured team. You cannot enthusiastically support opposing teams to their home team. They make it clear that it's a "Gunners' pub" and supporters have more rights to the space than non-suppprters.

This is also a place for drinking and football watching, but for Gunner's fans specifically.

How long have you been viewing and/or posting here?

It started out as a meeting place for women who were not allowed to freely discuss the issue in any other forum; and when questions were still not permitted even in parliament. The Labour party was still chanting 'No Debate' and there was no coverage in mainstream media. It acted as a lifeline in those times. That is the origin story.

Since then it gained notoerity and started to be targeted by trans activists, 'allies' and disruptors - who sought to report posts and get women banned. Many women were banned even from here. Over the years as the issue started to gain more traction with the public, the moderation eased up - and now we have quite a few people, such as yourself, who come here to argue in favour of 'genderism', or others simply to troll.