Two-year-old euthanised in Netherlands in first assisted dying case of its kind

[IwantToRetire]

I'm not going to select any part of the article but just post the link for those who want to read
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/netherlands-infant-2-euthanised-assisted-37709218

Agree wholeheartedly.

I believe that people who work with very advanced dementia sufferers say that most of them are not happy, at all. Apparently it's clear that there is considerable distress, often (according to the leader of an award winning advanced dementia acquaintance)

Which doesn't mean that in that case euthanasia is justified. It's justified when the individual requests it, being of clear mind.

Because of the long term affect this will have on how society values life.

Which will result in things like euthanasia being seem as a way to reduce costs.

That's not even a hypothetical.

There have been many societies which valued life less. We know what they look like.

A society's true measure is not economic growth or power, but its capacity and choice to minimise avoidable human pain.

I realise you have reasoned arguments for your position, but it seems to me that the value of life has to be partially measured by the respect for individuals' choice.

In other cultures where euthanasia is treated with respect (not canada) then the value of life is not lessened.

It could be that that the parameters for euthanasia will widen in those cultures, but it seems likely that a final balance will be reached. It's not a question of either nothing, or everything; there is in those cultures balance, and the choice of euthanasia is a valid and respected choice seen as part of someone's life and death. A good death is part of the entire sum of someone's life.

Admittedly in the parlous state of the UK's welfare system, that might not always be the case and while on balance I still think it's better to treat people as adults capable of making their own decisions and to support them in that, the concerns you state are very valid.

There is also the point that by refusing to support a capable adult in their choice, the society is saying that's it's fine for people to live in agony far beyond their wished-for lifespan. Respect for life really should include respect for the quality of life.

I work in adult social care. In my opinion, people can enjoy a good quality of life even when doubly incontinent. I understand previous posters' concerns about the distress that dementia can cause, but I cannot agree that continence (or lack of it) can be used as a benchmark for quality of life, as I have seen people retain the capacity for joy for years after they became doubly incontinent.

Human aging doesn't run on a strict timetable, and the symptoms of these conditions don't necessarily follow a set order.

I agree.

My son is incontinent and it doesn't stop him from enjoying life.

Yep. I am not a brain surgeon or neurologist, but it is my understanding that the bit(s) of the brain that controls the bladder and bowels and interprets signals of 'fullness' from either bladder/bowel is a different bit from the parts that mean you can, for example, enjoy doing puzzles/watching TV/singing along to the Rolling Stones.

It's simply not correct to assume that continence is the last thing to go.

Fair point, but no one in any sort of reasoned argument would say that continence alone is reason to consider euthanasia or assisted suicide.

What you're talking about there is other peoples' perceptions of someone else's life (and consequent assumptions) and euthanasia/assisted suicide should depend on the individual's own stated wishes when competent, except in the terribly sad tiny minority of cases like this child's.

My father lived at home with dementia for a few years. His dementia was very slow progressing and he died before it advanced of something else. Outsiders would have no idea he had dementia.

Yes and this is another data point highlighting why this is not only a human issue but a feminist issue.

No they aren’t, not in countries with assisted dying.

I’ve already commented on this. More women do choose assisted dying. Men are more likely to die by unassisted suicide.

I don’t think minimising avoidable human pain is really meant to include executing humans in pain every year so you save money on the welfare and health budgets.

Male suicide is three times higher than female suicide in the UK. Men often use violent methods.

Women who face terminal or severe suffering are more likely to choose assisted dying rather than violent means.

Yes but with no data to back it up, plus you are conflating suicide rates with assisted dying.

We aren’t talking about the same population of people who then have option A or option B for ending their life. Someone who commits suicide does due to severe and untreated mental illness. Someone who chooses assisted dying is usually either terminally ill or suffering unbearably. They aren’t the same pool of people.

In the countries where assisted dying is legal, there has been no impact to suicide rates at all. Indicating that there is no statistically significant overlap in the population of the suicidal and the ones seeking assisted dying.

Men have always committed suicide at higher rates than women. That is a subject for another thread as to why that is.

In Canada:
Men actually dominate the assisted dying track 1 for the terminally ill.
Women dominate the assisted dying track 2 for the not terminally ill for the more fuzzy reason of unbearable suffering but a review of the surveys asking them why have turned up troublesome phrases like don’t want to be a burden, want to preserve inheritance for their kids, lack of social or health support for their disabilities, the council is making them homeless and they’d die a worse death on the streets.

A meta-analysis of all countries with legal assisted dying also noted that the disabled, the poor and women are disproportionately represented for assisted dying. And there is no known medical reason for that.

Give people the choice. Just because you don’t agree with assisted dying and euthanasia, doesn’t mean other people do.

Plenty of people want it to be legalised in the UK. There are about 15 countries that already have some form of assisted dying.

To be fair, you haven’t actually brought anything to the discussion about assisted dying from either feminist perspective or not. You’ve just argued with another poster about the validity of posting on a particular forum. That poster wasn’t suggesting that they didn’t agree with it being discussed, they were just musing about where the discussion was taking place.

So because the State can’t get its act together to ensure all its citizens live a decent life, assisted suicide is a suitable alternative? Surely you meant to say that the State should be ensuring everyone can live a decent life so there is very little need for assisted suicide?

Male cancer patients, older adults, and those dealing with advanced illness, uncontrolled pain, or physical deterioration show disproportionately higher rates of fatal self harm. Women are more likely to chose assisted dying.

Assisted dying doesn’t split the suicidal into two groups, we still get all the same unassisted suicides (in some cases more) plus those accessing assisted dying.

Investigating the relationship between euthanasia and/or assisted suicide and rates of non-assisted suicide: systematic review

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9230443/

These studies cover four different jurisdictions: Switzerland, The Netherlands, Belgium and the USA. It is notable that most studies (four out of six) and all of those that scored as high quality (three), focused on Switzerland or the USA rather than on The Netherlands or Belgium. Neither of the studies from the Belgium or The Netherlands sought to analyse EAS data nor assess whether the introduction of EAS was associated with an increase in overall self-initiated death. Perhaps this is because EAS has long been an accepted part of practice in these jurisdictions.
Despite these divergences in analysis and the differences in practice between the four jurisdictions, there are some common results. No study found a negative association between EAS and non-assisted suicide. Canetto and McIntosh reported a reduction in non-assisted suicide in older men in Oregon between 1998 and 2018, but the overall non-assisted suicide rate in older people in that state increased over that period and the non-assisted suicide rate in older women increased by more than 50%.26 Furthermore, those studies that controlled for socioeconomic factors all found a positive association between EAS and rates of non-assisted suicide, although generally these results were not statistically significant.21,22,25
There is no evidence from these studies to date to support the hypothesis that EAS reduces non-assisted suicide. More high-quality research is needed before it can be determined definitively whether there is no association between introduction of EAS and rates of non-assisted suicide, or whether there might be a small positive association, as suggested by some estimates in the study by Jones and Paton.22

Ir does feel very very tilted towards GC feminists.

Parliament has chosen, repeatedly, not to legalise it. So when are you going to respect the decision of our democracy which represents the will of the people?

The State hasn’t got its act together so we need options which people can freely chose and consent to.

Some people will always choose death over living in certain circumstances.