terrifying, dangerous, abusive "advice" on r/transgenderuk

[mardirousse]

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1vo4oqz/hypothetical_situation/.

Dad wants to prevent his effeminate 15 year old boy from developing an adam's apple or deep voice, so "hypothetically" asks if he could back and forth to France for puberty blockers.

gets loads of "support", told he's a wonderful father, advised to put the lad on diy estrogen instead as it's more appropriate "at that age" (15!).

Surely platforms can't allow this, legally! it's so dangerous. I'm really upset. His poor little lad.

Well you might want to take that up with the Tavistock who claimed they were transing away the gay. Oh no wait, you can't, the clinic was shut down.

An attitude to effeminacy that results in quite literally removing all the bloody toys of a small child, is indicative of a deep seated, insidious and damaging mindset around homosexuality.

Jackie Green was crying on the phone begging his grandma not to tell his parents that he would like a doll for Christmas.

Damage done. I'm not surprised you can't see it. Empathy isn't strong in transactivists.

Jackie greens maturity was quite literally stopped as a child. And his genitals removed as a teenager.

He has no hope of 'not persisting'.

edited to add that Susie Green had absolutely no qualms, whatsoever, about broadcasting this entire issue to the world. Totally unaware of how it would appear to anybody else.

Until the penny dropped - and the video deleted.

Oh I wondered how long it would take for someone to bring up conversation therapy.

You are too blinded by your ideology and too ignorant of child development to understand how those homophobic parents created that child.

Jackie Greene has been on female sex hormones since they were 16 or earlier. How on earth do you or they know what their feelings would be now if they were being given male hormones instead of female ones?

There are women who take male hormones to feel more like men. It is no stretch of the imagination to believe that a male could feel more male if they were given male sex hormones.

Your "persistence" argument is built on a bed of sand.

I would call them teenagers with body dysmorphia not "trans teenagers". You cannot change sex so the treatment for body dysmorphia can never be changing sex. Until 50-60 years ago there were no transexuals. Until 15-20 years ago there were no "trans kids".

I assume the salivating gotcha waiting around the corner is that once upon a time, people thought being left handed had to be "cured" by forcing people to be right handed. The daft TRAs think that's the same as saying trans identifying children need to be "cured" by supporting them accepting themselves so they do not believe themselves to be mentally the opposite sex any more.

The obvious flaw they are missing in this of course is that the "cure" GC Feminists want for trans children is that they become happy in their natural bodies, understand that any personality is ok for the sex of the body and that who they are was they were never wrong or needing to be fixed in the first place.

Whereas the TRA's "acceptance" of trans childen requires telling them yes, they are broken and wrong for their bodies so unless their bodies are medically altered they will be be miserable and rejected all their lives.

Because you know, the TRAs are the nice, tolerant #BeKind ones 🙄

💯🎯

There have been trans people since the beginning of recorded history. People can be trans without changing sex.

The first recorded trans surgery was done over 100 years ago, and that's only if you don't count older cultures which removed the genitals young men, many of whom would probably have identified as trans in a different culture.

This isn't anything new. Only the battle to be recognised as having changed sex and take women's rights is new.

I cannot believe a mother would condone removing her son’s genitalia. Taking kids overseas for FGM surgery is illegal. This ‘mother’ ought to be locked up forever. Permanently physically damaging her child. WTF???

He only said he was a girl TO GET HIS TOYS BACK.

His dad did not want an effeminite son.

There is nothing more homophobic than cutting your son's dick off because he might fancy boys.

Forcing him then to be penetrated 'as a girl'.

It is totally sick and only a monster would do that to their child.

You appear to be mixing 'desist' with 'detransition', though you seem to have corrected that in a later post.

I'm catching up with this thread so I'll see later how you have responded to the idea that a child with gender incongruence [as I believe the accepted term is] will reconcile with their biological reality with the passage of time, making any medical intervention superfluous, to say the least.

You're minimising what happened. From the earlier link to SG's now withdrawn TED talk, the transcript provided includes this telling passage:

Well, Jack was my first child. I thought I knew what to expect but really I started to notice that as soon as he got mobile and could express himself he was gravitated towards things that you would see as stereotypically female. I wasn't bothered [that didn't you know] that didn't faze me at all, as far as I was concerned children should be allowed to play with whatever they want to play with even if it doesn't fit the norm. And at the childminders when I went back to work Jack's favourite outfits [with A22 in] the Snow White costume and again that was fine but not for dad. So Jackie's dad struggled and he blamed me. His thoughts were that because I allowed the Polly Pocket and the My Little Pony that I was facilitating and encouraging. And I disagreed and it caused tensions would I had come to the conclusion with over sort of the sort of years up until she was about two was that I had a very sensitive quite effeminate little boy who was probably gay but Jack’s dad did not approve of our childs effeminate behaviour and it created such tensions that we ended up in couples counselling. We went to couples counselling and what they said to us as parents was that we had to agree. No matter what it was that we agreed upon, we had to agree. At that point Tim decided that I must agree with him apparently, and then all the girl toys oh girly toys and such were taken away and put away and Jack was made aware that this was not appropriate. And suddenly our confident happy little boy became quite quiet, withdrawn, very clingy and tearful.

So there was a crisis when the toys were taken away, but that came after what sounds like several years when the poor kid's father would have been tutting and very obviously disapproving of all his child's interests and preferences. How is a tiny child supposed to make sense of this? Repeatedly hearing 'He's a boy, why's he playing with girls' toys?' 'This isn't on, he's not a girl, he should be outside playing football with the other lads ...' It doesn't take a great amount of imagination to see that this sensitive little boy might think 'I need to be a girl, then Dad won't always be angry with me and I can carry on dressing up and playing with my dolls.' What was badly needed in that family was somebody to tackle the father's Neanderthal views about what little boys should be like, not medication to change the child's body irretrievably.

I strongly disagree. Being "trans" has to be a modern invention because while it's never been possible to change sex in modern times with surgery & drugs it is now possible to become a pastiche of the opposite sex. The retconning of historic cross-dressers like Joan of Arc as being "trans" is ludicrous.

What people in recorded (but not recent) history would you consider to be genuinely trans?

I'm not dismissing what you say, but think we need to be a bit cautious in this area, because most people from history are only known to us from records of their behaviour rather than clear records of how they thought of themselves. With women, particularly, one would need firm evidence that they saw themself as a man, rather than merely tried to convince others that they were one, because being taken for a man has conferred social advantages in most societies.

Castration is another area for caution because often it was something done to, rather than for, the individual concerned.

???? What are you on about?????
I haven’t attempted to block anything or anyone.

The point about this “treatment” being unregulated anyway still stands.

I've caught up now, I was hoping to see a response to the articles linked to in my post, but you've only referred to
https://segm.org/gender-dysphoria-diagnosis-desistance-germany

You point out that this is based on 'nationwide billing data of the Associations of Statutory Health Insurance Physicians in Germany' - which I assume means many millions of people - and that it would not include people who did not engage with the German public health system.

What did you think of the other studies I linked to?

Surely the fact that they used different samples/methodologies, but came up with a similar finding - that children with gender incongruence are more like than not to reconcile to their biological reality with the passage of time, making medical intervention superfluous if not dangerous - the jury is still out on the safety of PBs, for instance.

How many different studies finding the same thing would be convincing, in your opinion?

Well no. The graph I posted suggests it's not true. That if you go back to 1950 there were far fewer people who were left handed.

Of course you're right. Left handed people existed back then just as they do now, and in the same numbers. Just like gay people existed in the past just as they do now, and in broadly the same numbers.

Because visibility is not the same as existence.

The same is true of trans people.

If you think that a boy having a father who reacts badly to them playing with 'girls' toys is going to mean they develop a trans identity that lasts for thirty+ years, then there would be a LOT more trans women around.

Jackie Green's father's views were awful - almost certainly homophobic, yes, but also misogynistic. But they were also not entirely uncommon among fathers in particular until very recently. My father - raising kids in the 1980s - held those views, and he was not an outlier.

The idea that any of those people would have preferred a trans daughter to a gay son is nonsense. The myth of the liberal pro-trans homophobe is just a nonsense.

Except trans men don't take hormones to 'feel more like a man'. They take hormones to appear more like how society expects a man to appear. That may be in order to pass better, or because it gives them a better sense of congruence between their body and their gender identity.

But there is literally zero evidence that it is male hormones that makes a trans man 'feel like a man'. If that were the case then there would be no such thing as trans men who don't take testosterone. But of course they exist. Because T is the response to, not the cause of, a trans identity.

There is no such thing as a trans child. No child is the opposite sex to that which they are. 'Gender' is simply personal expression and personality. The abuse of children in this way ( under the guise of supporting them) is a strange form of Munchausen's by proxy.

I'm not going to dignify the rest of your post, but the first sentence is just wrong. Jackie Green said she was really a girl or should have been born a girl when she was four - the father's reaction and the toys being removed came after that.

Thank you

The problem with this is that left-handedness and homosexuality are factual: sexual attraction and brain lateralisation can be tested for and observed.
There are people who are only attracted to members of their own sex, and people whose dominant side is the left not right side.

There are not, however, any people who have changed sex, because that is impossible. There is no history of 'TWAW' or 'TMAM', because that is impossible and was accepted as such until very recently.

There have always been people who for one reason or another felt closer to the stereotypes associated with the opposite sex, and in some cases they attempted to pass as such - again for a variety of reasons, for women it was often because it was safer to present as a man, or because it offered opportunities in life that were forbidden to women.
In some cases, the only way for a woman to have an intimate relationship with another woman was to pretend to be a man.

But they knew, perhaps to their great chagrin, that they were women, because that is an unchangeable biological fact, and they worked within that reality, unlike the recent trans movement who claim that humans can not just attempt to present as the opposite sex, but actually change their sex.

Lesbian/gay, left-handed, transgender - one of these doesn't belong there, because it's not an observable fact.

Trans is just a modern cultural framing for people who are gender non-conforming.

There have always been people who don’t conform to the stereotypical behavioural characteristics of their sex. So what?

It’s just in the past people didn’t have trouble understanding that your sex is a fixed attribute. Perhaps they were around farm animals more?

It’s only in the last 15 -20 years that social media and modern hormones and surgery have allowed the rise of the fantastical belief that you can be “really” the opposite sex in some interior way.

It is fascinating, but it is a cultural phenomenon. It’s weirdly literal, black and white thinking, absolute against all physical evidence, as well as conveniently catering to the fetishistic wing of the movement.

Who would have thought that so much energy could be wasted on physically altering the bodies of people who are gender non-conforming? Rather than accepting them as outliers of their sex, but nevertheless, of their own sex.

Our ancestors would think we are insane for allowing this belief to take hold.

The idea that any of those people would have preferred a trans daughter to a gay son is nonsense.

And yet...

No matter what it was that we agreed upon, we had to agree. At that point Tim decided that I must agree with him apparently, and then all the girl toys oh girly toys and such were taken away and put away and Jack was made aware that this was not appropriate. And suddenly our confident happy little boy became quite quiet, withdrawn, very clingy and tearful.

And just to drive the 'agreement' home, he had his penis removed on his 16th birthday.

People who believed they'd encountered aliens are almost entirely missing from the records until about the 1950s, when society started to believe alien abduction might be an actual thing.

I suspect the missing trans people of history are more like missing alien abductees than missing left handers.

Now, that isn't to say that the idea of becoming the opposite sex or crossing between the sexes isn't a potent human metaphor that arises again and again, but then again so do beliefs around being able to return from the dead or interact with the dead, becoming young again, being guided by animal spirits or having magic or future-seeing powers. All the great impassable barriers of human experience arise in our beliefs and metaphors exactly because they are things we experience very intimately yet cannot control or surpass.

Today's "trans" myth is just the modern retelling of the same urge that has Athena born from the body of Zeus.

And you think that was the first occasion that child knew that his father wasn't going to love him if he was an effeminate boy?

As I say, you are seriously under informed about child psychology.