Are we a cult?

[CyclingSam]

I keep reading that sex realists, of which I am one, are a cult. Perhaps a genderist could be so kind as to explain what a cult is, and why we qualify. Sometimes one of us calls them a cult too. Who has a better case, hmmm?

I think context matters. And that misogynistic men should be treated with no more respect than they offer women.

I think it's a trap to demand women must be perfect to be allowed to have valid opinions.

I think the TRAs who leapt to label JKR sharing a photo that has been circulating for a long time "upskirting" were consciously choosing the worst faith interpretation they could so I think it's sad to see women jumping to respond when they pull that chain.

I hope you reflect on why you felt you needed to speak up about this but not the abuse JKR has faced. Do you perhaps fall into that double standards trap yourself?

You are entitled to your own response to her work, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that she thinks it's a great idea to humiliate people. I think you might just be reading too much into a children's book.

Again, the picture shows a lot of Wallis's legs, but that is just a function of him choosing to wear fishnet stockings and a mini skirt. (I hope you don't mind me referring to him as 'him', but I don't feel any obligation to use preferred pronouns for a man who talks about using his 'female penis' at fetish clubs).

Maybe 10 years ago there were more women who thought that people would listen if they took the high ground, but they still got death threats, so now I think some just don't see the point.

I don’t think so. I’d never send anyone a death threat AND I’d never use a photo of someone’s body with the intention to humiliate them. I haven’t said anywhere that J K Rowling actions make her opinions invalid (although I do disagree with them), but I do think actions have consequences, and one of the consequence here is that people think it’s misogynist behaviour.

And I’m not asking women to be perfect…. But I do draw the line at harassment based on what someone’s body looks like, or using the ‘look what she was wearing, she asked for it’ defence!

Ah. I see while I was writing this that Henge has now acknowledged their interest is on the TRA side, so their sincere concern that JKR may have been damaging Gender Critical Feminism by her intemperate and unladylike actions was indeed exactly as I initially characterised it.

Same old same old bad faith takes and not worth bothering with any more.

Yeah, it popped out eventually...

If she is obsessed with anything it is women's rights.

That isn't a new thing. She has supported charities that support women for decades.

The For Women Scotland decision was important because it confirmed that women can be defined in law and therefore have rights.

Do you not think women need rights? I know there is a lot of focus on single sex provision because that is where there is conflict, but those are just exceptions to the over arching rule that sex discrimination is unlawful. That is only possible because we can define sex.

Women have only had protection from discrimination for just over 50 years, but are we done with that now?

What you mean by this is that you consider it harassment for a women to point out that a male body is not female.

That's rather convenient.

No woman is harassing females for having the wrong body. We are simply saying that no male body is female.

ah - I do like close reading even if it might seem like ‘reading too much into a children’s book’ to others. I do think there’s evidence in the HP texts of a kind disgust around bodies which you can trace through to her views and actions. (Former big fan… I’ve read them a lot!)

I do understand the feeling that taking the high ground doesn’t work. It just feels uncomfortable as a women who has experienced misogyny to see it used by other women in this way. Do you worry it might make the movement feel unsafe for some women?

Yup, they're just working their way through the list. It's so very predictable.

But I do draw the line at harassment based on what someone’s body looks like, or using the ‘look what she was wearing, she asked for it’ defence!

I do feel that if I were on a stage at a public event wearing clothes that reveal my thighs, I would not be surprised to see pictures of me and my thighs at the event. If I were not happy for people to see my thighs, I would wear something different.

I didn’t say saying you don’t believe trans women are women is harassment. I said using pictures of people’s bodies to humiliate them is harassment.

More appropriation, more DARVO.

You have appropriated "upskirting" - the sexually motivated crime committed by males and perpetrated against females.

JKR is not male, she is female. I very much doubt that she was sexually motivated by reposting a long circulated picture of the very much still a male Fred(a) Wallace's public attention seeking.

Did you see my question about whether using misogynisitc tools might make some women feel unsafe in gender critical spaces? It’s not that I think anyone has been ‘unladylike’.

This!

It’s only a crime because Gina Martin campaigned for it to be one. And she agrees that J K Rowling acted appallingly on this occasion.

Oh so we're not a cult according to you then?

Small mercies and all that.

It would be rather more accurate to say that it's now a crime in England because of Gina Martin's campaign. Scotland had a specific offence of upskirting a full decade before it was brought in in England.

And I'm pointing out 'your questions' follow a very predictable pattern...

ah - I do like close reading even if it might seem like ‘reading too much into a children’s book’ to others. I do think there’s evidence in the HP texts of a kind disgust around bodies which you can trace through to her views and actions. (Former big fan… I’ve read them a lot!)

Honestly, I do think that people read too much into Harry Potter. The books have obviously been a phenomenon, but I don't think they can be expected to hold the weight of everything that so many people have invested in them. Rowling is very good at building worlds and making people turn a page, but she didn't write the Bible.

I'm sure you can also find flaws in the Alex Rider and Percy Jackson and Hunger Games books.

It just feels uncomfortable as a women who has experienced misogyny to see it used by other women in this way. Do you worry it might make the movement feel unsafe for some women?

I'm a bit confused by what you mean here. I am very sure that Rowling does not regard India Willoughby and Fred Wallace as women, so whatever she is doing is not misogyny. They are rude about her. She is rude about them. And so it goes on. From memory, I think Rowling has also been quite rude about Corbyn, Scottish Nationalists and Trump. She has always been political.

Many different people believe that 'sex matters' and they have a variety of approaches and political views and there have been massive rifts between people who would have shared a platform at the end of the 2010s.

Believing that sex has consequences is no more 'a movement' than believing that the earth isn't flat. Collaboration has been in response to people who have sought to remove the concept of sex from policy and legislation. There isn't a club with rules that you can join or leave.

I applaud the efforts to get upskirting recognised as a crime.

However, upskirting is a sexually motivated crime committed by men against women and girls.

I disagree with GM that JKR has done anything wrong.

JKR didn't "upskirt" Fred. JKR is not male, Fred is not female. JKR didn't actually take the picture, she was not sexually motivated by seeing or sharing the picture.

What you have done is DARVO'd and appropriated the words used to describe a male crime against women and girls and you've switched it all around to place a large, intimidating, male wearing fetish gear (wearing a miniskirt and fishnets on a high stage to flash women is a fetish!) in the victim role, and a woman into the offender role.

This kind of bollocks just doesn't fly here! 'Scuse my pun.

Oh waily waily waily.

Yer all going to hell tha knows?
Sinners! Transphobes! Bad bad wimmin. Ye'll burn in the fires of eternal wrath.

Such ridiculous hyperbole. This is what you sound like.

Who is this "she" you are referring to in this instance?
How is it misogyny to humiliate* (as you would have it) a man?

Fred Wallace is a man, a man who was acting out a very manly fetish on a public stage.

*personally I think he humiliated himself. Probably on purpose.

@Stonehenger

Any thoughts about how the women might have felt, the women who thought at first that Fred was actually flashing his bollocks at them from the stage?

Yes it turns out that it wasn't actually a bollock, and it was in fact a bit of leg fat.

But it's small mercies again, really isn't it?

Does it make the initial shock/disgust/distress/humiliation any better that it wasn't actually a bollock, and turned out to be leg fat? I don't think so.

Women still felt that shock/disgust/distress/humiliation from thinking it was a bollock (it did look like one!), and there is still a big fuck off bloke up on stage manspreading in his mini skirt and fishnets who is quite possibly thoroughly enjoying this open display of not only his body, but his "power" over all those women who might disagree with his being there.

Worse, women like you are telling the rest of us that instead of using our usual safeguarding senses honed by years of being women and being subjected to actual misogyny, that we shouldn't be pointing out the creepy man in the room. Instead, we should accept and celebrate men like this because of body positivity, and because if not it's using "misogynistic tactics used by men against women".

Weaponizing the sexism and misogyny females face, and feminists efforts towards body positivity for women.

JKR didn't repost that photo to humiliate Fred Wallace, but to ensure that evidence of him flashing was preserved and could not be denied. If she's said "Fred Wallace flashed the audience during a debate" without photographic evidence, TRAs would have accused her of lying.

Yes. He'd enjoy it far too much.