What TRAs or 'gender' advocates and 'gender critical' feminists agree on.

[WrongKindOfFeminist]

Thought it might be useful to find points of commonality.

Ever the optimist! 😊

1. Gender stereotypes can be restrictive and limiting.

Well, I was aiming for a tacit assumption that we weren't talking about extremist TRAs here.

And looking at how moderate centrist positions share some basics.

We are all well aware of the attacks and violence and threats women have been subjected to over the years.

Those men are into forced feminization exactly because they think it is humiliating to be female. It plays right into men/masc = good women/fem = bad. They get aroused by feeling humiliated. If it wasnt humiliating, they wouldn't be into it.

The fact that incels believe women have privileges is complex but ultimately untrue. The complexity comes in because it is possible for a woman to hold social privilege over a man simply because she has other aspects of advantage that he does not. Sex might be her only area of disadvantage, and his only area of advantage.

So it isn't untrue that a man who genuinely experiences many areas of societal disadvantage may look around and see many women who have it far easier than him. It's just his anger about that inequality is misplaced.

However, anyone who believes that no women have more social privilege than any men, just because they believe sex is such an overwhelming point of oppression would also be wrong IMO.

I'm thinking more of people who accept TRA tenets and see 'trans rights' as something to advocate for.

To be perfectly honest I'm thinking of friends who are supportive of 'trans rights' while being intelligent, thoughtful people. Some who are non binary, even.

Most of us who post on here know very well that there are lots of people/women who don't agree with us! Otherwise, we would have nothing to argue about and we could all just go back to our normal lives, pre- about 2010.

Overall, it seems about 50/50 when you conflate all the studies

I'd like to see some evidence of this, please.

Otherwise, can we get back to the point of the thread, which is what you were berating us for earlier?

1. Because it recognises that men and women are socialised differently
2. It removes the labour of rehabilitating men from women who typically took that role
3. It supports men in being better partners to women and better parents to their children

Mental health support and men's support groups are inherently feminist

Surely that would depend on what they actually advocate? If they support the idea that women are human beings in their own right, and must be respected as equals to men, and thus teach men how to deal with these ideas in positive ways, then I can see a case being made that they are feminist. But not all men's support groups encourage that kind of thinking, in which case, no, they are not at all feminist.

But if someone started a thread on that, would you just shout at them that you have no obligation to support them because the subject has nothing to do with women's rights?

For me, it would depend on what you mean by "support". Cheering from the sidelines? Sure! Actually putting in any work? No, I really don't have an obligation to do that.

The complexity comes in because it is possible for a woman to hold social privilege over a man simply because she has other aspects of advantage that he does not. Sex might be her only area of disadvantage, and his only area of advantage.

Sounds like BS to me. Care to share some evidence of women's "social privilege"?

Which, BTW, is nothing to do with the OP's original question.

I think it is pretty clear from a range of studies with varied results that a good amount of people believe TWAW and a good amount of people do not. More women believe TWAW than men it seems.

I am saying it is about 50/50 when you put all that together. I think it would be bordering on delusion to say otherwise.

A woman can be rich, white, educated, able bodied, living in a high opportunity environment, etc etc. Sex isnt the only area that people experience privilege or oppression.

That even hypothetical otters aren't allowed on the flight deck so all 100 of them must be positioned elsewhere on the aircraft?

Like the MPs who want to stop the guidance.

The problem is that they aren't defining what they mean.

It could be that they believe that just saying 'I'm trans' makes it so, or a certificate, or surgery, or clothes.

Or it could be none of those, but they think single sex spaces still work if anyone can use either.

Its as if you are saying perceived intelligent people dont need to show their working, and GC feminist have to find a way to reach out to them.

1. Has nothing to do with women's rights OR the point of the OP's original question.
2. This is madey-uppey, AI BS. Patriarchy and women's sex-based oppression is what caused women to be in the role of "caring" for men in the first place. That, and the fact that of men simply not taking responsibility for themselves.
3. This is men's responsibility to deal with, to work on themselves. Not women's problem or job, and nothing to do with feminism.

Feminism centers women, not men. Men's mental health is a men problem and centers men.

So no evidence. Thanks for showing that.

A woman can be rich, white, educated, able bodied, living in a high opportunity environment, etc etc.

And a man can be rich, white, educated, able bodied, living in a high opportunity environment, etc etc. and will have a higher "social privilege " than that woman.

Sex matters. It always matters.

BTW, this is a spectacular derail, congratulations!

I won't be enabling you to do this anymore, so won't be responding unless you get back on topic.

(Which is what you wanted us to do, apparently).

Quite. I think this is another tactic. TRAs slipping in these unevidenced claims in the hope that they won't be challenged on them.

1. It has everything to do with womens rights because it recognises that men have problems that they perpetuate themselves and we cant help them with them.

2. Men taking repsonbility for their own services is part of them being accountable for the problems they perpetuate. It recognises that the emotional labour has too long been on women.

3. and yes it is their responsibility, and that is why them creating the space to do that and all of society generally supporting them in doing so is aligned with feminism. It eases one way women are oppressed by men.

There is evidence that shows most women believe TWAW. I think this is so obvious i am really.not going to Google it for you. I think you are seriously deluded if you believe only a tiny minority of women believe TWAW. If they did, you wouldn't be fighting so hard to be heard. Women are the main supporters of TW.

The public outrage when it was discovered the Isla Bryson could be placed in a women prison shows that TWAW isn't anything like a common belief.

The population support excluding men from women's sports and spaces where women are vulnerable.

All of these exclusions show that population doesnt believe TWAW. At best some believe that certain accommodations can be made.

But noone is able to say when a man becomes a women for these accommodations and what 'these accommodations' are.

Yes the point is that there are several areas any human can experience social privilege. If you remember, you asked me how a woman can have any social privilege so I had to explain that to you.

"Care to share some evidence of women's "social privilege"?"

It seemed as if you believed that all woman are more oppressed than all men which of course would be a ridiculous thing to say or think.

I think roughly speaking, it's 50/50. Most studies I've seen don't vary much more than 60/40 either way.

C'mon. Give us a link

But if someone started a thread on that, would you just shout at them that you have no obligation to support them because the subject has nothing to do with women's rights?

?

There is no prohibition on feminists supporting initiatives that have nothing to do with women's rights.

Quite right.

And I only included the pineapple on pizza because I know @Boiledbeetle would rise to the bait. It's like trolling Bindel with crisps on a train journey.@

Many people believe it is kind to say that TWAW. That is not the same as believing that TWAW.