What TRAs or 'gender' advocates and 'gender critical' feminists agree on.

[WrongKindOfFeminist]

Thought it might be useful to find points of commonality.

Ever the optimist! 😊

1. Gender stereotypes can be restrictive and limiting.

I suppose what I'm hoping is that I can find ways to stay friends with people who are still supportive of the general gist of genderism. That there is space for well meaning friends on the TRA side to rub along with me even as a terf.

I think we may be at a point we can hardly even raise the issues, and I'd like it to be possible to discuss in good faith.

There's a difference between saying things to be kind, conform or not get into an argument, and really believing.

Why doesnt it ever make the news when a TM gives birth, will it be news worthy if TW does?

Lots of people will put constraints on TW that they wouldn't put on women - surgery, drugs, presentation, certificates.

All this indicates that no, people do not believe TWAW. All they have done is change the definition of woman.

Now, now, stick to The Topic please!

ps. Pineapple on pizza is vile... @Boiledbeetle

Yes. You can see this from the polling. A majority of people say 'yes' to allowing others to identify as a different gender to their sex, but 'no' to allowing them to use opportunities and facilities meant for the opposite sex.

@Seethlaw "For me, it would depend on what you mean by "support". Cheering from the sidelines? Sure! Actually putting in any work? No, I really don't have an obligation to do that."

Once again, where did I suggest that women should put in the work? Once again, this is a forum for discussion; on a societal level these interconnected issues, and to just put your fingers in your ears and go 'lalalala' is contributing nothing to the conversation.

It feels insane to be explaining this to an adult woman, but I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people.

@Seethlaw Beeee Kind!

"Ladies... We have reached our otter target" 😎

Being female is ultimate femininity

Last heard in a Victorian parlouroom in 1897.

This is why we see this ideology as promoting limiting stereotypes - whether through self-interested conflation of the two, or misunderstanding as words are appropriated, this "female = femininity" is becoming more common.

Cf. the Barbie and GI Joe spectrum - after 50 precious years of understanding these oppressive associations, little girls as spice and all things nice is once again being taught in a school near you.

I don't believe that all women are more oppressed than all men.

I do believe that all women rely on legislation and resources that men don't, and that the legislation and resources can be taken away.

For instance, for women, the right to work is underpinned by living in a society where it is assumed that contraception is widely available and that a woman can control her fertility. I don't think it's a co-incidence that the Sex Discrimination Act was passed at the same time that the pill became widely available.

It's not a question of winning some kind of oppression competition. It's a question of being able to use clear language to talk about different needs.

Actually yes, people should be kind.

I'm not going to bang on about how social media has degraded empathy again (even though that's clearly a huge factor in how this debate has toxified), but if someone says you should care about people and your immediate response is to roll your eyes, then be my guest, but don't expect you can drag me down into the mud with you.

Sorry @BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp , realise that looks like it was aimed at you

AFAICS 'gender advocates and TRAs' don't seem to share a set of beliefs, let alone a coherent set, so I find it impossible to answer the question you posed at the top of the thread @WrongKindOfFeminist. Sorry😕

I am friends with people who disagree with me on this. Three of the people I love most in the world disagree with me on this.

There are enough things on heaven and earth we can use to find common cause; we can agree to think about gender identity differently and still have much in common.

I think it depends.

I don't think we should Be Kind when debating ideas or laws. I want facts not fluffy caring slogans when looking at ideas.

I do think we should Be Kind when interacting with people in reality. Holding a door open, not saying "Christ your hair looks awful," offering to help carry a pushchair up the stairs etc. Being respectful of other people's needs whilst simultaneously expecting them to be respectful or mine.

Be Kind as a slogan is pernicious because it is used to tell women to ignore their needs in favour of pandering to someone else's demands.

Understandably, many women are so over that shit.

I am saying it is about 50/50 when you put all that together. I think it would be bordering on delusion to say otherwise.

Sorry but you are the one who is deluded. It depends on which question is asked but support for "trans" people is way less than that & getting worse every time the public is polled.

Over 50% vs. 30% think increased rights for trans people pose a genuine risk to women's rights.
About 60% don't want trans identifying men in female changing rooms vs. 20% who do
For women's sports 80% don't want trans identifying men included while 15% do

yougov.com/en-gb/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

There is no evidence that “most women believe TWAW”.

While some people might say superficially that they ‘agree’ in the very same poll, when asked about male people with transgender identities accessing female single sex provisions, that trend reverses. Meaning that when pushed to confirm this ‘belief’, many of those saying they believe prove that they don’t.

Considering there are now many polls across the world which show that the majority of females do not support male people accessing a range of female single sex provisions it is not just inaccurate to state ‘most women believe TWAW’, it is a false claim.

If you want the links, at lunch, I can link you up with those polls.

Here is a link that directly contradicts your claim. Where is your evidence?

50% vs 35% think you should be able to identify as a different gender
Over 50% vs. 30% think increased rights for trans people pose a genuine risk to women's rights.
About 60% don't want trans identifying men in female changing rooms vs. 20% who do
For women's sports 80% don't want trans identifying men included while 15% do
yougov.com/en-gb/articles/51545-where-does-the-british-public-stand-on-transgender-rights-in-202425

I think we are kidding ourselves if we assume that more than 50% of people would even understand the question.

LOL! I do care about other people, thank you very much, but I won't put any work into supporting ALL of them, because that's just not possible. I have to choose, and men (whether they identify as women or not) are not at the top of the list. Doesn't mean I don't want the best for them!

And if you don't want people to discuss what you write, then don't write it, easy.

I don't think anyone sane and/or rational genuinely believes 'trans women are women'.

The expansion of that phrase is generally 'We should pretend some men are women for various reasons'.

TWAW is a thought terminating cliche, for sure.

I'm just so tired of fighting the fights.

And yet - women are still being 'banned' from polite society for the outrageous sin of claiming that sex matters:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyej1ln8ydo

No problem. I may be phrasing it badly, or it may be an impossible question. I'd just like for it all to be back to a more rational place, where we could disagree with someone and it not result in death threats and women losing their jobs.

Good to hear. Thank you.

Yet you are so rude in your interactions. Are you genuinely not aware of how your comments are coming across?

The phrase TWAW in tweets but not in the sheets exists for a reason.

Lots of people want to accommodate people who identify as trans, but its rarely unconditionally. There are limits to where and who, that doesn't exist for women.

Therefore, they know there are differences.

Its difficult to argue this with intelligent friends because it exposes a lack of critical thinking neither you or your friends want to highlight.

What you want to ask is how can I get them to acknowledge they know men cannot literally become women without them losing face.

If we wait for every stubborn intelligent women who wont acknowledge the truth, nothing will ever be done. Its best not to talk about it to them. They aren't part of the solution anyway.