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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What TRAs or 'gender' advocates and 'gender critical' feminists agree on.

448 replies

WrongKindOfFeminist · 18/07/2026 11:21

Thought it might be useful to find points of commonality.

Ever the optimist! 😊

  1. Gender stereotypes can be restrictive and limiting.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Pingponghavoc · Yesterday 08:34

Velvian · Yesterday 08:14

I think a lot of what you suggest is cultural (gender rather than sex), but we have no way of accurately separating cultural from biological, which has always been an issue in trying to define sex vs gender.

I agree about separating gender and sex.

Women have learnt over years that they are unlikely to benefit from violence. There'll always be a high percentage of people who are stronger than them. Women will feel just as angry and vengeful as men, but have to find other outlets.

But its interesting that guns eliminate much of the strength advantage, but women still dont use guns to murder as much as men.

RedToothBrush · Yesterday 08:35

Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 08:10

The whole thread has been derailed by people who have felt the need to again share their own personal views about trans people like you instead of answering the topic.

Women.

Do as you are told.

Do not say anything that is not authorised.

Seethlaw · Yesterday 08:38

Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 08:10

The whole thread has been derailed by people who have felt the need to again share their own personal views about trans people like you instead of answering the topic.

I know I'm a trans person. I'm not sure why you feel the need to keep pointing it out.

And this thread has not been more derailed than plenty others. Not to mention that it could be argued that your couple of posts right now are also a derail.

To answer OP's question: what do you think are things TRAs and GC people agree on?

RedToothBrush · Yesterday 08:40

Helleofabore · Yesterday 08:27

This has been something that has been playing on my mind about the insistence that feminists are extreme and that ‘bluntness’ is somehow bad.

Firstly, ‘kind’ language that is accurate and can be confusing has led to constant twisting and pivoting where male people use whataboutery to find a point where they can restart their push to get access or retain access to female single sex provisions. We have seen posters this week post ‘Whatabout surgery? Whatabout when a male athlete has been incorrectly identified as a female infant? Whatabout if Khelif doesn’t win’?

Blunt and accurate language should stop these wheedling attempts to find the exception. Because… in safeguarding principles for these types of scenarios, blanket exclusion (ie where all male people are treated equally) are imperative.

The other aspect is again, this false ‘both sides’ rhetoric as if feminists are using comparative violent and abusive language as those male people calling for the death of women or celebrating the fact that apparently all the women who have pointed out the issues will die soon and miraculously the next generation will be fully accepting. None of this is true. Yet we see it over and over again.

Interestingly though, the same people declaring that others are twisting their words, have a posting history where they have done the same thing.

I remember how many posters used the same fuckwittery to denounce JK Rowling. It seems that it never crosses their mind that they are the ones supporting abusive people. JK Rowling has almost always (I cannot find one example of her not) used blunt terms when discussing either her abusers or those abusers who are harming women and girls.

I think any person accusing her of abusing people has a warped moral compass. Why the fuck should women be nice to their abusers ? Why should JK Rowling be nice to Willoughby when he abuses her? Too often people post her ‘abuse’ and have never once looked further to understand that poster has being abusing her and she isn’t abusive she is simply either pointing to their abuse or using blunt language to point out the flaws in their thinking.

But… both sides.

Either way, there is no comparison that women being blunt and unyieldingly using accurate language is being shamed. Look that the emotional cut through of the Upton testimonies when accurate language was used.

It is hard to whatabout when Naomi Cunningham states clearly ‘he has a male person in a female communal changing room’. That is the ‘blunt’ language female people are using and being implored to stop. Versus the language from many male activists collated on the terfisaslur site.

The assymetry of ‘both sides’ is apparent again in the demonising descriptors used for any feminist or women’s rights campaigners who disagree that male people can ever be female. Eg ‘anti trans’, ‘far right’, and now ‘anti rights’.

Then there is the conflation of when posters are making relevant generalisations based on safeguarding principles and posters making unevidenced negative generalisations. Too often too are posters called out for naming behaviour as ‘predatory’ because someone has twisted the post to mean ‘all male people with trans identities are predators’.

How often does a poster who disagrees with female people having single sex provisions complain using the term ‘bad faith’ when they are hypocritically posting in bad faith themselves .

There are so many aspects where the ‘both sides’ rhetoric is false. From the size of the groups, to the behaviour, to the accusations of language etc. Yet some people, even politicians, still use this falsity. And they then wonder why women reject it as a premise.

Yep.

A lot of us here picked up very early that the WAY we discussed things and the language we used was important and being used against us.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 08:41

If we are going to call in the thread police, the OP referred to TRAs and gender advocates, who may or may not be trans.

The proposal was that they shared some beliefs with people who are gender critical.

Obviously these groups have a range of beliefs that have nothing to do with gender, but I'm yet to see anyone make a good argument for a shared belief that does relate to gender.

Helleofabore · Yesterday 08:44

Helleofabore · Yesterday 08:27

This has been something that has been playing on my mind about the insistence that feminists are extreme and that ‘bluntness’ is somehow bad.

Firstly, ‘kind’ language that is accurate and can be confusing has led to constant twisting and pivoting where male people use whataboutery to find a point where they can restart their push to get access or retain access to female single sex provisions. We have seen posters this week post ‘Whatabout surgery? Whatabout when a male athlete has been incorrectly identified as a female infant? Whatabout if Khelif doesn’t win’?

Blunt and accurate language should stop these wheedling attempts to find the exception. Because… in safeguarding principles for these types of scenarios, blanket exclusion (ie where all male people are treated equally) are imperative.

The other aspect is again, this false ‘both sides’ rhetoric as if feminists are using comparative violent and abusive language as those male people calling for the death of women or celebrating the fact that apparently all the women who have pointed out the issues will die soon and miraculously the next generation will be fully accepting. None of this is true. Yet we see it over and over again.

Interestingly though, the same people declaring that others are twisting their words, have a posting history where they have done the same thing.

I remember how many posters used the same fuckwittery to denounce JK Rowling. It seems that it never crosses their mind that they are the ones supporting abusive people. JK Rowling has almost always (I cannot find one example of her not) used blunt terms when discussing either her abusers or those abusers who are harming women and girls.

I think any person accusing her of abusing people has a warped moral compass. Why the fuck should women be nice to their abusers ? Why should JK Rowling be nice to Willoughby when he abuses her? Too often people post her ‘abuse’ and have never once looked further to understand that poster has being abusing her and she isn’t abusive she is simply either pointing to their abuse or using blunt language to point out the flaws in their thinking.

But… both sides.

Either way, there is no comparison that women being blunt and unyieldingly using accurate language is being shamed. Look that the emotional cut through of the Upton testimonies when accurate language was used.

It is hard to whatabout when Naomi Cunningham states clearly ‘he has a male person in a female communal changing room’. That is the ‘blunt’ language female people are using and being implored to stop. Versus the language from many male activists collated on the terfisaslur site.

The assymetry of ‘both sides’ is apparent again in the demonising descriptors used for any feminist or women’s rights campaigners who disagree that male people can ever be female. Eg ‘anti trans’, ‘far right’, and now ‘anti rights’.

Then there is the conflation of when posters are making relevant generalisations based on safeguarding principles and posters making unevidenced negative generalisations. Too often too are posters called out for naming behaviour as ‘predatory’ because someone has twisted the post to mean ‘all male people with trans identities are predators’.

How often does a poster who disagrees with female people having single sex provisions complain using the term ‘bad faith’ when they are hypocritically posting in bad faith themselves .

There are so many aspects where the ‘both sides’ rhetoric is false. From the size of the groups, to the behaviour, to the accusations of language etc. Yet some people, even politicians, still use this falsity. And they then wonder why women reject it as a premise.

Blimey. Sorry.

‘Kind’ language that is INaccurate

Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 08:44

Seethlaw · Yesterday 08:38

I know I'm a trans person. I'm not sure why you feel the need to keep pointing it out.

And this thread has not been more derailed than plenty others. Not to mention that it could be argued that your couple of posts right now are also a derail.

To answer OP's question: what do you think are things TRAs and GC people agree on?

I already answered. You replied.

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 08:48

Helleofabore · Yesterday 08:27

This has been something that has been playing on my mind about the insistence that feminists are extreme and that ‘bluntness’ is somehow bad.

Firstly, ‘kind’ language that is accurate and can be confusing has led to constant twisting and pivoting where male people use whataboutery to find a point where they can restart their push to get access or retain access to female single sex provisions. We have seen posters this week post ‘Whatabout surgery? Whatabout when a male athlete has been incorrectly identified as a female infant? Whatabout if Khelif doesn’t win’?

Blunt and accurate language should stop these wheedling attempts to find the exception. Because… in safeguarding principles for these types of scenarios, blanket exclusion (ie where all male people are treated equally) are imperative.

The other aspect is again, this false ‘both sides’ rhetoric as if feminists are using comparative violent and abusive language as those male people calling for the death of women or celebrating the fact that apparently all the women who have pointed out the issues will die soon and miraculously the next generation will be fully accepting. None of this is true. Yet we see it over and over again.

Interestingly though, the same people declaring that others are twisting their words, have a posting history where they have done the same thing.

I remember how many posters used the same fuckwittery to denounce JK Rowling. It seems that it never crosses their mind that they are the ones supporting abusive people. JK Rowling has almost always (I cannot find one example of her not) used blunt terms when discussing either her abusers or those abusers who are harming women and girls.

I think any person accusing her of abusing people has a warped moral compass. Why the fuck should women be nice to their abusers ? Why should JK Rowling be nice to Willoughby when he abuses her? Too often people post her ‘abuse’ and have never once looked further to understand that poster has being abusing her and she isn’t abusive she is simply either pointing to their abuse or using blunt language to point out the flaws in their thinking.

But… both sides.

Either way, there is no comparison that women being blunt and unyieldingly using accurate language is being shamed. Look that the emotional cut through of the Upton testimonies when accurate language was used.

It is hard to whatabout when Naomi Cunningham states clearly ‘he has a male person in a female communal changing room’. That is the ‘blunt’ language female people are using and being implored to stop. Versus the language from many male activists collated on the terfisaslur site.

The assymetry of ‘both sides’ is apparent again in the demonising descriptors used for any feminist or women’s rights campaigners who disagree that male people can ever be female. Eg ‘anti trans’, ‘far right’, and now ‘anti rights’.

Then there is the conflation of when posters are making relevant generalisations based on safeguarding principles and posters making unevidenced negative generalisations. Too often too are posters called out for naming behaviour as ‘predatory’ because someone has twisted the post to mean ‘all male people with trans identities are predators’.

How often does a poster who disagrees with female people having single sex provisions complain using the term ‘bad faith’ when they are hypocritically posting in bad faith themselves .

There are so many aspects where the ‘both sides’ rhetoric is false. From the size of the groups, to the behaviour, to the accusations of language etc. Yet some people, even politicians, still use this falsity. And they then wonder why women reject it as a premise.

That is the ‘blunt’ language female people are using and being implored to stop.

This, I suspect, is part of the Truths That Shall Be Forbidden To Be Discussed that the "misinformation" report is hinting at:
"Anti-trans views classed as misinformation in government report" | Mumsnet

Too many men don't want women speaking the truth, and they certainly don't want to hear it being spoken bluntly. It makes them #Sad.

And truth and bluntness from women apparently enrages a lot of anti-women activists. So let's speak more truth. Bluntly.

"Anti-trans views classed as misinformation in government report" | Mumsnet

So, in addition to Amnesty, we now have 7 academics writing a 136-page report for the Government Office for Science claiming that lack of support for...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5556446-5556446-anti-trans-views-classed-as-misinformation-in-government-report?page=1

Pingponghavoc · Yesterday 09:01

Having spoken to lots of trans people, the only thing that we dont agree with consistently is sex. I think its important to organise around sex and is defined by reproductive potential, they don't believe both. I don't see the women/female distinction some of them do.

Ive spoken with trans people who do not conform to any gender expectations of their target sex/gender. Basically they look and behave as their sex, but see themselves as the other. That's not GNC in the same way I see it. But they are critical of gender in the same way I am.

RareGoalsVerge · Yesterday 09:22

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 08:41

If we are going to call in the thread police, the OP referred to TRAs and gender advocates, who may or may not be trans.

The proposal was that they shared some beliefs with people who are gender critical.

Obviously these groups have a range of beliefs that have nothing to do with gender, but I'm yet to see anyone make a good argument for a shared belief that does relate to gender.

I think there's definitely agreement on "nobody is obliged to be constrained by the sexist stereotypes associated with their birth sex"

Both sides agree that it is fine to totally reject those stereotypes and live freely according to your own choices, so long as you harm no one else.

The disagreement comes down to the philosophical beliefs behind this, and the definition of "harm". According to one side this shared belief is based on an understanding that the stereotypes are wrong and if some people's choices are to conform to the stereotypes that's just one thread in the tapestry of diversity and is no more significant than the choices of someone who chooses to reject the stereotypes. According to the other side the stereotypes are true and real for the people whose choices are in line with the stereotypes for their sex, and if someone makes the choice to conform to the stereotypes of the opposite sex then that makes them "actually" a member of the opposite sex on a plane of reality that is far more important and significant than base physical matter and chromosomes/physiology. According to one side it does no harm to be kind and compliant and agree with someone else's counter-factual beliefs in order to promote their happiness, and according to another that is a harm.

Pingponghavoc · Yesterday 09:24

Any debate or finding commonality with trans ultimately comes down to how to define 'women' and 'men'. Nothing else is relevant.

That's a bonkers debate at the best of times, but harder when TRA doesn't have one definition.

India Willoughby will say he is a biological female. He may be seen as an extreme, but his rationale is supported by lots of TRA - he has had surgery, has a GRC and conforms to some gendered female stereotypes.

Others will say that is just declaring you sex/gender is enough. Again, it could be seen as extreme, but reddit is full of posts saying 'I plan to come out, when should I start using the correct toilet?' The answer is often 'whenever you want'.

In reality, the debate isn't happening. How many MPs who oppose the guidance can define when and how someone changes sex? They know they cant specify because anything sounds barmy to normies and will offend at least half of the TRA.

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 09:26

But, to answer the OP's original question, I think women have as much in common with people who identify as trans as they have with all people. We're all just people, and we all have differing opinions about things. That's just life. Just as an example, I know that @Seethlaw and I agree that women as a separate sex class from men exist, and that matters. I imagine we both agree that the sky is blue except when it isn't. Other than that, who knows, and who cares? Diversity is what makes the world interesting. Otherwise we'd run out of things to talk about!

Common ground between gender critical (or sex realist) women/feminists and TRAs/MRAs? I doubt it:

a. Activists like these don't believe (or profess not to believe) that sex exists as an immutable, biological reality. It's their raison d'être.
b. Transactivists, on the whole, are advocating for "trans wants" not rights; what rights do they not have that other people have? (I've never read or heard that topic convincingly approached, let alone explained).
c. The "wants" that transactivists are advocating for are actually rights that already belong to women as a sex class. I will never agree to give up my rights so that someone who doesn't want me to have those rights can have their "wants" met.

Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 09:27

I think there is some dismissal here of the fact it isn't just "trans people" who are TRAs. Not by a long shot. A lot of people have specifically said "trans people" when it is really anyone who believes in gender ideology or something along those lines. They may or may not be trans.

Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 09:28

Pingponghavoc · Yesterday 09:24

Any debate or finding commonality with trans ultimately comes down to how to define 'women' and 'men'. Nothing else is relevant.

That's a bonkers debate at the best of times, but harder when TRA doesn't have one definition.

India Willoughby will say he is a biological female. He may be seen as an extreme, but his rationale is supported by lots of TRA - he has had surgery, has a GRC and conforms to some gendered female stereotypes.

Others will say that is just declaring you sex/gender is enough. Again, it could be seen as extreme, but reddit is full of posts saying 'I plan to come out, when should I start using the correct toilet?' The answer is often 'whenever you want'.

In reality, the debate isn't happening. How many MPs who oppose the guidance can define when and how someone changes sex? They know they cant specify because anything sounds barmy to normies and will offend at least half of the TRA.

With trans what?

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 09:29

Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 09:27

I think there is some dismissal here of the fact it isn't just "trans people" who are TRAs. Not by a long shot. A lot of people have specifically said "trans people" when it is really anyone who believes in gender ideology or something along those lines. They may or may not be trans.

They may or may not be trans.

Trans what?

Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 09:33

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 09:29

They may or may not be trans.

Trans what?

I'm using trans as an adjective, the other poster was using it as a noun.

Other poster: "any debate or commonality with female(s).."

Me: That person may or may not be female.

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 09:33

Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 09:27

I think there is some dismissal here of the fact it isn't just "trans people" who are TRAs. Not by a long shot. A lot of people have specifically said "trans people" when it is really anyone who believes in gender ideology or something along those lines. They may or may not be trans.

This is nitpicking, and if you've spent enough time on these threads, you will understand what posters mean. And so will other readers.

It's a shortcut because we get tired of writing everything out over and over again. We all know the difference between activists and people who are just living their lives not trying to take stuff from other people.

And, after having gotten back to the original question of the post, which is what you were demanding, you are now nitpicking and derailing it yourself.

ed sp

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 09:34

Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 09:33

I'm using trans as an adjective, the other poster was using it as a noun.

Other poster: "any debate or commonality with female(s).."

Me: That person may or may not be female.

As I said, nitpicking. Can we get back to the original topic, please?

WrongKindOfFeminist · Yesterday 09:37

Seethlaw · 21/07/2026 09:48

I kind of see what you mean, but it's really not that simple.

First, there's a difference between "feminine" and "female". Men who are perceived as feminine can be treated badly, but they are still perceived as being men, so they are not treated the same as people perceived as being female.

As for women, they all experience sexism because they are female, whether they are perceived as being more feminine, more masculine, or other. And as far as presentation goes: whatever women do, however they present, someone somewhere will mistreat them for it. So no, it can't be said that more feminine women are treated worse than the other women.

So I guess what you mean is that women, feminine men, and men perceived to be women, are treated worse than other men? I guess I agree with that, though I'm not sure what this forced teaming is supposed to accomplish?

The incel narrative is that women are treated better than men. And this is found all over the place, including among TRAs.

OP posts:
AimsAndObjectives · Yesterday 09:38

Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 09:28

With trans what?

Hey, 'trans' was good enough for GLP's shark poster.

nicepotoftea · Yesterday 09:39

RareGoalsVerge · Yesterday 09:22

I think there's definitely agreement on "nobody is obliged to be constrained by the sexist stereotypes associated with their birth sex"

Both sides agree that it is fine to totally reject those stereotypes and live freely according to your own choices, so long as you harm no one else.

The disagreement comes down to the philosophical beliefs behind this, and the definition of "harm". According to one side this shared belief is based on an understanding that the stereotypes are wrong and if some people's choices are to conform to the stereotypes that's just one thread in the tapestry of diversity and is no more significant than the choices of someone who chooses to reject the stereotypes. According to the other side the stereotypes are true and real for the people whose choices are in line with the stereotypes for their sex, and if someone makes the choice to conform to the stereotypes of the opposite sex then that makes them "actually" a member of the opposite sex on a plane of reality that is far more important and significant than base physical matter and chromosomes/physiology. According to one side it does no harm to be kind and compliant and agree with someone else's counter-factual beliefs in order to promote their happiness, and according to another that is a harm.

Given that, as you say, one side thinks it's fine to define themselves according to the stereotypes of the opposite sex, I don't think that is really agreement.

WrongKindOfFeminist · Yesterday 09:39

Lexibletheflexible · 21/07/2026 09:06

People who are perceived as feminine are treated worse than people who are not.

I think everyone involved in these discussions agrees with that.

I don't think that's true. Necessary to take into account 'forced feminisation' and 'sissification' as well as incel/MRA ideas about women having privileges over men.

OP posts:
Lexibletheflexible · Yesterday 09:42

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 09:33

This is nitpicking, and if you've spent enough time on these threads, you will understand what posters mean. And so will other readers.

It's a shortcut because we get tired of writing everything out over and over again. We all know the difference between activists and people who are just living their lives not trying to take stuff from other people.

And, after having gotten back to the original question of the post, which is what you were demanding, you are now nitpicking and derailing it yourself.

ed sp

Edited

No i dont think it's nitpicking actually because it then becomes easy to forget that many people (specifically women in this case as we are here) don't agree with your point of view. So when you say "women feel X", you trick yourself into believing that all "real" women believe this and the only people who don't are trans identifying men (to use a term I see on here).

Overall, it seems about 50/50 when you conflate all the studies on this matter on whether women believe TWAW and probably more importantly, whether it is okay for them to use single sex spaces like women's toilets.

GiddyGiddyGiddy · Yesterday 09:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/07/2026 22:13

It’s like expecting the Dogs Trust to take in cats and saying “why do you hate cats, what are they supposed to do” when they explain that they are a charity for dogs.

Except that's so overly simplistic; for all the ballyhooing about 'that's not GCs job' (which I agree it isn't!), these things don't exist in a vacuum, and acting as if they aren't interconnected issues is just burying your head in the sand.

Mental health support and men's support groups are inherently feminist because they stem from the same scepticism of gendered socialisation. But if someone started a thread on that, would you just shout at them that you have no obligation to support them because the subject has nothing to do with women's rights?

BridgetYourFortyDaysAreUp · Yesterday 09:46

GiddyGiddyGiddy · Yesterday 09:44

Except that's so overly simplistic; for all the ballyhooing about 'that's not GCs job' (which I agree it isn't!), these things don't exist in a vacuum, and acting as if they aren't interconnected issues is just burying your head in the sand.

Mental health support and men's support groups are inherently feminist because they stem from the same scepticism of gendered socialisation. But if someone started a thread on that, would you just shout at them that you have no obligation to support them because the subject has nothing to do with women's rights?

Mental health support and men's support groups are inherently feminist because they stem from the same scepticism of gendered socialisation.

"Inherently feminist" you say? Yeah, you're going to have to explain a bit more why you think this is the case. Why is men's mental health anything to do with feminism?