What TRAs or 'gender' advocates and 'gender critical' feminists agree on.

[WrongKindOfFeminist]

Thought it might be useful to find points of commonality.

Ever the optimist! 😊

1. Gender stereotypes can be restrictive and limiting.

Not at all, it's just that it's silly to try and have a conversation with you about whether something that men do can be considered Feminist if you don't think it's possible for men to do anything feminist. I disagree with you that a man who upholds that women are no less important and valid and fully human than men and there should be no disadvantages that women must simply accept purely due to their sex is a humanist, because Humanism is explicitly, emphatically and centrally atheist whereas feminism can be compatible with both theism and atheism according to personal conscience. However I am perfectly capable of disagreeing in a civil way without getting angry. Being accused of getting angry for no reason when I have not shown the slightest reason for it is tiresome and makes it look like you are trying to deflect away from a difficult question though.

US GALLUP ABOUT SPORTS, BIRTH SEX ON GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS

https://news.gallup.com/poll/691454/two-thirds-prefer-birth-sex-ids-athletics.aspx

"Roughly two-thirds of Americans support two separate policies prioritizing the birth sex of transgender people over their current gender identity. Sixty-nine percent of U.S. adults continue to believe that transgender athletes should only be allowed to play on sports teams that match their birth sex, and 66% of Americans say a person’s birth sex rather than gender identity should be listed on government documents such as passports or driver’s licenses."

and

"Between 2021 and now, Democrats’ and independents’ levels of support for transgender athletes to play on sports teams that align with their current gender identity have both fallen by 10 points (to 45% and 23%, respectively), while Republicans’ support has not changed significantly."

There is a csv file downloadable on this link .

It's in answer to the original post; in the same way that someone jokingly initially replied with 'GCs and TRAs can both agree that gravity exists', I think that GCs and reasonable TRAs can both agree that stereotypes lie at the heart of the problem and that women and transpeople both face challenges in the world. I don't think pointing out that those challenges stem from the same place is irrelevant to this discussion.

I already posted a link to the YouGov opinion polls (twice in fact) but it seems that our FlexibleFriend has been frightened off by facts that contradict her view that women are split 50:50 whether TWAW which is of course total nonsense.

I'm at work. Aren't you?

I am happy to keep posting polling data. I don’t believe there is any current polling that supports a consistent population opinion poll that the majority of people ‘believe TWAW’. When further explored the majority of expression of belief is directly contradicted.

If there is evidence and consistency in the data to support a claim where the majority of people ‘believe TWAW’, please link it up.

Following up on this (and returning to the original post again): I think that GCs and TRAs would agree that the (socially-constructed) misogyny that makes men aggressive towards women is the same misogyny that makes men aggressive to gay people and transpeople.

You are assuming that gay people and transpeople aren't men or capable of misogyny.

Its as if misogyny has been redefined as the hatred of all things not masculine by 'cis men'.

Trans ideology redefine woman away from sex into whatever an individual man wants it to mean. That's misogyny.

@Helleofabore "Have you confused feminism with egalitarianism?"

Have you confused egalitarianism with intersectional feminism?

The description of this board reads:

"A feminism forum for sex and gender discussions, feminist chat, theory and intersectional feminism."

I think unpacking the societal cause of misogyny falls squarely into feminist theory, and I think disregarding the fact that transwomen face issues which stem from that same misogyny is missing the wood for the trees. Transwomen don't experience misogyny the same way that women do, but that same misogyny is, at least partially, what makes men a potential danger to them.

Recent literature reveals that while public debate often highlights polarization, the majority of cisgender women actually support trans women’s inclusion in social, legal, and single-sex spaces. However, cis women frequently underestimate this peer support, mistaking exclusionary minority voices for the broader group norm.Key themes regarding cis women’s perspectives toward trans women include:Inclusion vs. Misperception: Studies across regions like the UK and Australia show that a clear majority of cis women support gender self-identification. Yet, because of vocal opposition amplified in media, many cis women believe their accepting attitudes deviate from the group majority, a misperception that peer-correction interventions can help resolve.

This is what ChatGPT says and it is in line with what I found.

Are you dismissing any research that disagrees with you or uses language you don't like?

Again. That is purely your belief and you really having provided much apart from emotional reasoning to support it.

You even said that male people experience ‘misogyny’ in an attempt to convince readers using female language. I disagree that it is ‘misogyny’ . I believe some people have called it misogyny to attempt to align it with the premise that feminism is about addressing misogyny. While feminism is about identifying misogyny, and accurately identifying it, the premise of feminism surely is to ensure female people are not oppressed and have sex based rights that address their needs.

Including an oppressor group in feminist aims is not what I consider a feminist action.

@Pingponghavoc "Trans ideology redefine woman away from sex into whatever an individual man wants it to mean. That's misogyny."

100% agree; it stems from the central lie that being a transwoman makes them a woman, rather than just a different type of man. The misogynist culture is what makes them think they're a 'woman' instead of a man with traditionally 'feminine' interests, therefore the issue is still internalised misogyny.

So link up that evidence.

If you don’t agree with the evidence, link up the evidence that supports your assertion.

CHAT GPT? Are you fucking serious?

You need to go to original sources and find the information that backs your claims otherwise you are repeating misinformation.

This is what ChatGPT says and it is in line with what I found.

ChatGPT, oh dear. Let's see a link to 'what you found'.

It was an honest question. Not an accusation. I'm 100% not trying to deflect, what woudl I be deflecting from?

'...it's silly to try and have a conversation with you about whether something that men do can be considered Feminist if you don't think it's possible for men to do anything feminist.'

Is it? Okay. I honestly don't really care that much about it. I barely even bother whether I'm a feminist myself these days. Deeds not words, etc.

I think here we're just playing with semantics, although I don't think it's irrelevant to bring up wider contexts of misogyny and how they affect transpeople, given that the original point of the thread was about finding comonality.

“Are you dismissing any research that disagrees with you or uses language you don't like?”

No.

Having read the research from the original source, and understanding how these questionnaires work is how I find out my information. I read everything I can get my hands on.

Whereas you used AI? Is that where you researched this?

'Studies across regions like the UK and Australia show that a clear majority of cis women support gender self-identification' - this is just not true.

Homophobia. Generally.

Although I suppose one could consider sexism/misogyny in the idea that a man who is cosplaying a woman is deliberately lessening/demeaning himself.

See also my previous comments about sissification and forced feminisation, a pretty important trope within many parts of genderism.

You still have not detailed what all this adds to the discuss about female single sex provisions.

The background information that you discuss is actually pretty widely known on this board.

The point so many of us are making is what is the direct relevance to the outcome of female single sex provisions?

How does the points you want to discuss directly impact female single sex provisions?

lastly, I meant humanism with a small h, the principle, not the organisation, which seems to be full of numpties.

the majority of cisgender women actually support trans women’s inclusion in social, legal, and single-sex spaces.

ChatGPT is just a conjuring trick. There is no intelligence in AI it's just a fancy version of predictive text & here it has just produced unevidenced bollocks.

You are ignoring the evidence in links that both @Helleofabore & I have posted on this thread that contradict your opinion. The only evidence you have produced so far is that ChatGPT agrees with you.

Produce the evidence for your assertion.

@WrongKindOfFeminist I am sorry if I've got caught up and come across as a bit rude in this conversation, particularly given that I agree with 99% of what's been said.

More generally I think having a discussion about commonality means having to see the argument from the other side even if we disagree with it, and I genuinely do think there's common ground somewhere that gets lost through social media just being a shit way to discuss these things. I think actual transpeople (as opposed to TRA extremists) are acknowledging the same system of misogyny from a different perspective. That doesn't mean they're women, it doesn't mean that we have to accept them as women, and it doesn't justify blokes dressing up as women to enter changing rooms or the countless things I simply don't have space to include in one reply, but I really do think that buried under absolutely everything, there is something like a common ground that's being smothered by the arguing.

If 50% of women think men can be women, how come not one has ever explained how a man can change into a woman and at what point that change happens?

How do they manage to think something that they can never explain?

@Helleofabore "How does the points you want to discuss directly impact female single sex provisions?"

It doesn't, and I never claimed that it does; but this is a thread about commonality with TRAs on a general feminism board, not a thread solely about single sex spaces.