What TRAs or 'gender' advocates and 'gender critical' feminists agree on.

[WrongKindOfFeminist]

Thought it might be useful to find points of commonality.

Ever the optimist! 😊

1. Gender stereotypes can be restrictive and limiting.

I agree with you for the most part, but I can see that men taking personal responsibility for men's health and working for a fix that doesn't put the emotional and mental load onto women to sort out is one thing that a man who wants to be part of the solution and not perpetuate the patriarchy can do.

There are of course different definitions of feminism and according to some definitions it is literally impossible for any man to be a feminist. However, under a definition where men can be feminists if they uphold that women are no less important and valid and fully human than men and there should be no disadvantages that women must simply accept purely due to their sex, then working to create such services for men is an intrinsic part of such feminism precisely because this is men's responsibility to deal with, to work on themselves, and not women's problem or job.

Yet you are so rude in your interactions. Are you genuinely not aware of how your comments are coming across?

I think that he is perfectly well aware of how rude he is. He is not posting in good faith but is trying to provoke in order to screenshot a "gotcha" when someone snaps back.

'However, under a definition where men can be feminists if they uphold that women are no less important and valid and fully human than men and there should be no disadvantages that women must simply accept purely due to their sex'

A man advocating for this is a humanist.

Well. I'd settle for not being excommunicated for daring to advocate for women's rights.

Does this include TRAs?

Because if you believe that it should/does then maybe you should tell them.

All the death threats,
Rape threats
Doxxing etc.
Name calling
cancelling
has come from their side.

Where as what has come from the GC side is telling someone that they can't change sex and "no".

But if TRAs have there way consent will become a thing of the past.

The rudeness is what stood out to me.

It feels insane to be explaining this to an adult woman

don't expect you can drag me down into the mud with you

No wonder exhortations to be kind expressed in this way are met with an eye roll. And calling out hypocrisy and performative kindness enables more meaningful kindness.

I said on another thread that kindness requires a concession from someone - in showing it, one person gives time, effort, or even just thought, to another. In a sense, it's only really meaningful when it's as freely given as possible, and certainly without coercive pressure or emotional blackmail ("Be kind!" and the language used above).

So meaningful kindness also means questioning which demographics are pressured to be kind at their own expense - and respecting their right to question that (a kindness in itself).

The altruism thing fascinating - that question of, to what extent is there even such a thing as selflessness, if kindness is actually driven by the selfish imperative to belong? Etymologically, "kind"'s associated with "kin" and what's "natural". If it is about all that, then that really shows how artificial kindness can be - just fitting in with the social standards of the time in order to protect yourself. And that suggests how much more meaningful a kind of kindness it is to have the courage to step back and ask, "Yes, but why?" and "Is it, really?" first.

In contrast, that artificial, fitting-in side of kindness is really pronounced in this debate. You see it for what it really is in how readily and unthinkingly the ugly language of moral censure appears. That's not going to be about encouraging something genuine and beautiful. It's is about protecting and promoting one's own status as "kind" - and therefore "safe". It's also about instinctual, frightened boundary-building - a closing off ("I am, you're not - so there!") as opposed to more meaningfully "inclusive" reaching out ("I can see what you're saying, but I'd argue that...")

So to bring that back to the thread title, I guess we agree that "kindness" is important, but define and enact it differently? Obviously, that's massively, problematically generalised, but I think as a trend has some truth.

Empirically false. There are oodles of studies showing that women are penalized both professionally and personally for failing to conform to stereotypical femininity.

@GiddyGiddyGiddy Is it kind and caring to call a transman a woman?

Do you believe that it's impossible for a man to be a feminist?

And this is the point.

When directly asked about the application of that ‘belief’ for the purposes of female single sex provisions, a question that is better understood, the answers are consistently ‘no male people should not be accessing female single sex provisions’. Ie. No. The majority of female people do not ‘believe TWAW’.

It always pays, doesn’t it, to drill down below the superficial.

Well. I don't really care that much about classifications and labels as identifiers.

I'm not interested in arguing about who is or isn't a feminist, it's just a label.

However, it's important for women to have something for themselves.

Because it's all about power, at end of day, and it's hard, if not impossible, to convey how it is to be of the sex that has historically and for each of our lifetimes, lacked power in almost every sphere.

Redress and healing from that needs largely to come from women, for women.

Women's lives, experiences, power, and dynamics are different from men's.

Men who decide they are part of the feminist movement can cause damage without even fully realising what they are doing. The sex who are habituated to being listened to, can mistake acquiescence for agreement, etc.

This is exactly what I mean though; just because I'm pointing out that the debate has become so polarised, and suggesting all transpeople shouldn't be conflated with the worst 1% of TRAs, you've told me that I'm a man who is just here to make you look bad.

I agree that the actions of a minority of TRAs are absolutely disgusting. I agree that TWAW is a though-terminating cliche. I agree that women have a right to single-sex spaces. The original point that I made was that the whole discussion has got ugly and out-of-hand, and that social media has a large amount to do with that, and I fail to see how that's controversial.

I've seen GCs who openly mock transpeople (Note: just transpeople. Not TRAs, just transpeople living their life), making fun of their appearance and turning a blind eye towards the actual struggles they face - not shit about changing rooms or toilets, but that fact that walking through a city at night is substantially more dangerous for them that it would be for regular men.

I can sympathise with that because I'm a woman and I also would feel in danger if I was walking through a city at night. I'm not demanding that you have the same sympathy, but I think just belittling all transpeople on the actions of the worst TRAs doesn't help anyone, and I think the flat-out refusal to acknowledge that transpeople might face any difficulties is.

The fact that there are violent people who claim they're transwomen doesn't reflect on everyday transpeople, and I don't expect them to have to apologise on their behalf, in the same way I wouldn't expect my Muslim friends to apologise for terrorists or myself to apologise for Rose West.

How is this modelling your own demand to be ‘kind’?

There seems to be an awful lot of do as I say, not as I do with your posts.

So let me try answering the original post again, so that I can be completely crystal clear about what I mean;

I think TRAs and GC people are both sick of how toxic the debate has become, and I think a large part of that stems from social media and the flattening of language it facilitates.

I will repost this from pages back.

The point women are making is not denying that some male people might be at risk of violence and abuse. Male people with and without transgender identities.

The point really is ‘so what does that mean to the discussion about female single sex provisions of any kind’?

Why do you and other people mention this violence and abuse in the first place?

Why is a male experiencing violence and abuse being mentioned on a feminist board discussing the needs of female people? What does acknowledgement of that issue mean to feminist discussion ?

@GiddyGiddyGiddy

I mean these terms, 'believe', and 'impossible', and 'feminist' are all kind of contested or contestable.

I don't know that I 'believe' shit about feminism. It's not a religion.

Nothing in this sphere is impossible, it's all porous and more subtle than that.

And in fact your question comes across as quite aggressive and indignant. Are you angry?

I think women are fucking tired of being told what they should be doing to be considered kind and what they should be discussing by those people who have their own personal criteria, for whatever reason, as to what women who are kind should be doing.

For anyone interested in refreshing their memory.

YOUGOV UK TRACKER COMPARISONS

The following is the data from UK trackers from 2018 - 2024 tracking public opinion as part of their series of 'Where does the British public stand on transgender rights'. 2018 results included where they are available.

Here are some of the results that relate to the needs for female people to have single sex provisions:

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024

Should be allowed 27 [16] 12% 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 15%
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74% 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 26%
Don't know 25 [22] 14%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 25%. 2018 - 2024* this is decrease by 17%
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 58%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 25%
Don't know 25 [23] 17%. 2018 - 2024*this is decrease by 8%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 13%
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%. 2018 - 2024* *this is increase by 20%
Don't know 23 [21] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 29%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 18%
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 55%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 28%
Don't know 26 [25] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

No surgery question was asked in 2018
And the specific non surgical question from 2020:
Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...
Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Should be allowed 26 [25] 19%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 63%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 17%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 23%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 8%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 60%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 19%
Don't know 27 [25] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

And finally:

This question was also not asked in 2018

Do you believe that allowing transgender women to use spaces reserved for women, such as women's toilets or changing rooms, does or does not present a genuine risk of harm to women? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024

Does not present a genuine risk of harm 39[32] 25%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 14%
Does present a genuine risk of harm 32[39] 55%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 23%
Don't know 29 [29] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2018.pdf

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2020.pdf

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_Transgender_study_2024.pdf

There was also a Sex Matters poll done within days of the YouGov tracker.

These are the results of it compared to in the past too. Just pulling them together, the Sex Matters (2533 adults polled) results were often more supportive than the YouGov results (2078 adults polled).

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/SexMatters_Gender_241219_ZMwbM2T.pdf

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024 SM (YG 2024)
Should be allowed 27 [16] 11%SM 2018 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 16% (YG 12%)
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74%SM 2018 - 2024 SM this is increase by 26% (YG 74%)
Don't know 25 [22] 15%SM. 2018 - 2024 this is SM decrease by 10% (YG 14%)

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 27%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is decrease by 15% (YG 25%)*
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 56%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is increase by 23% (YG 58%)
Don't know 25 [23] 17%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is decrease by 8% (YG 17%)*

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%SM. 2018 - 2024 SMthis is decrease by 13% (YG 29%)
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is increase by 20% (YG 55%)
Don't know 23 [21] 16%SM. 2018 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 7% (YG 16%)

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 31%SM. 2018 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 16% (YG 29%)
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 47%SM. 2018 - 2024 SM this is increase by 20% (YG 52%)
Don't know 26 [25] 22%SM. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease SM by 4% (YG 20%)

And the specific non surgical question from 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024SM (YG 2024)
Should be allowed 26 [25] 20%SM. 2020 - 2024SM this is decrease by 6% (YG 19%)
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 62%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is increase by 16% (YG 63%)
Don't know 28 [27] 18%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 10% (YG 18%)
Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 26%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 5% (YG 23%)
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 58%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is increase by 17% (YG 60%)
Don't know 27 [25] 16%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 11% (YG 18%)

One from Australia

AUSTRALIAN STUDY ON TRANSGENDER ATHLETES IN FEMALE SPORTS & ON PRONOUN USAGE

Especially for those who continue to believe that the majority of the world's population are fully supportive of the demands from trans people. Rather than that many of the world's population is supportive of some of the demands of trans people but have limits. 50,000 Australians filled in this survey.

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/all-the-questions-in-one-place-from-great-aussie-debate/news-story/ca8ab531382816ec97a4151b9088fab7

18. Should transgender athletes be allowed to compete in women’s sport?
No = 82.6%
It depends on the sport = 8.2%
I don’t know = 4.9%
Trans women are women = 4.2%

4.2% answered they believe TWAW as an answer to the direct question about sports.

@Helleofabore "Why is a male experiencing violence and abuse being mentioned on a feminist board discussing the needs of female people? What does acknowledgement of that issue mean to feminist discussion?"

It acknowledges that misogyny also affects men. Misogyny encourages men to act a certain way to be 'manly', and when testosterone mixes with perceived impotence. the misogynist idea that men are somehow 'superior' to women is liable to bubble over into male violence. Real transpeople have - to varying extents on a person-to-person basis - made a conscious decision to ignore misogynist ideas of what makes someone 'manly'. This in no way entitles them to women's spaces, and doesn't mean I should call them a woman if I don't want to, but it does appear to be based in a rejection of misogynist ideas of what a man should be.

It's taking a wider view of the subject, sure. Misogyny is still something that men should fix themselves and we aren't obligated to do anything, but I think its relevant context for a wider feminist discussion.

NZ POLLING FROM 2023
newsroom.co.nz/2023/11/03/race-relations-among-most-divisive-issues-in-election-poll/

“A report from pollsters Talbot Mills, seeking to understand the degree to which New Zealand has become more politically polarised, shows people broadly agree on Covid-19 measures and gun laws but are divided over or opposed to policies for Māori and transgender people.”

And

“The least favoured policy was allowing transgender women to compete in women’s sport – just 14 percent supported it versus 60 percent who opposed.”

and

“Half of respondents opposed allowing transgender women (described as “biological males who identify as women” in the poll questions) to use women’s bathrooms, with 21 percent supporting the move.”

If the majority reject male people in female sport, they don’t “believe that TWAW”.

If only a minority actively support male people in female single sex provisions, it is false to say most people ‘believe TWAW’. Because if they did, then the majority would support male people in female single sex provisions.

So, just because you, personally, believe it is relevant?

Is it misogyny? The term misogyny is one that has a specific meaning. And no male person is female.

Or is what you are talking about ‘perceived sexist stereotyping’?

Forcing usage of the female term ‘misogyny’ is an act of forced team.

Your personal criteria of what you believe is relevant doesn’t reflect the universal understanding of feminism.

Again, why is it relevant to the discussion about female single sex provisions?

Why is what you wish to discuss relevant at all to female people’s single sex based rights?

Have you confused feminism with egalitarianism?

Following up on this (and returning to the original post again): I think that GCs and TRAs would agree that the (socially-constructed) misogyny that makes men aggressive towards women is the same misogyny that makes men aggressive to gay people and transpeople.

In the same way that 'gay panic' was used by misogynists as an excuse for homophobia in the 80s and 90s (i.e. This man is gay, he's going to try to make me gay - read: less of a man), the existence of transwomen shows them that there is a way to be a man without the misogynist stereotype of 'manliness', which some men will find confronting and lash out against.