Trying to understand everyday views on sex and gender discussions

[Schallern]

Hi,

I hope this is the right place for this post.

I am a bisexual female and have been friends for years with a very liberal, LGBT crowd. Past “trans women are women”, I never questioned anything.

I’m in my mid to late 20s now and I’ve recently expanded my social circle. As a result of this and moving away from purely LGBT spaces, I’ve had a lot more exposure to a wider range of political and social opinions.

A big one of these is the realisation that my previously, narrower social circle was very much an echo chamber. We just accepted everyone. That is lovely in some senses, but I also understand the world isn’t that simple.

Thing is, I’m struggling to even work out my feelings.

I’ve been taught that anything less than fully accepting trans people as the gender they want to present as is transphobic.

I suppose in my mind the two sides are a) complete acceptance and b) complete denial and erasure of trans-people and outright transphobia.

I’m interested in what exists in the middle. What do normal, everyday, people believe? What is the most “common” view on trans issues? Outside of my own echo chamber, where does the line lie?

I understand this forum leans very heavily in one direction. However, that’s why I’m asking here. Do you discuss trans issues with your friends and own social circles? Does it even come up? What kind of conversations do you have?

I suppose I’m trying to get a gist for what “acceptable” opinions are outside of my own social scene. Like I said, it’s just “trans women are women.” Anything less is considered erasure and denial and would have an individual cast out!

Happy to answer any questions. I’m trying to think more critically and actually work out what my own opinions are. And please note that whilst I have obviously described myself as coming from a very liberal background, I’m very open to hearing views as I no longer know what mine are. It’s amazing how quickly things change once you’re in the “real world.”

@Lexibletheflexible can you explains what you think is 'unhinged' about the women fighting for their legal rights to single sex spaces and services?

Colour me shocked that the OP never returned

Here’s my view.
There are 2 sexes male and female.
Sometimes on the extremely rare occasion a baby is born without clearly defined sexual organs so a decision had to be made as to whether her child will be defined as male on female. This decision is based on professional, medical opinion as to which of the sex organs appears most dominant. This is extremely rare. So rare that it affects virtually nobody.
Gener is a man made construct. It is not based on biological fact. Indeed it’s just a feeling, an opinion. Rather like expressing the opinion that red is a better colour than blue. Or that Shakira is a better singer than Adele.
For centuries we have had people try and force everyone into gender electric roles.
For example you are female so when you become an adult these are your choices of career. I clearly remember this at school. The teacher showing the class pictures of workers in specific roles and asking us all individually what we would like to do when we grew up.
Now, the choices we were show were based 100% on our gender. Even as a young child I found it odd and it didn’t match with who I was.
I am female but felt it wrong that my choices were: nurse, hairdresser or teacher.
The boys choices were; fireman, policeman or astronaught.
This is his the problem started. Trying to force people into tight boxes.

Look how many people on this thread have made the distinction between those male people with a penis and without.

I don't personally draw a distinction, but I think when talking majority views a penis makes the answer obvious and immediate for the majority. When opinion polls spell out clearly that they're being asked about a male person with a penis, a large majority say no to TW in women's changing rooms.

People who haven't thought the issues through are less sure about men without penises. They think of castrating animals to make them less aggressive, and that what flashers want to show off is their dicks. They think that a man who goes to those lengths must be sincere in some way. And for men there's the cringe factor. They don't want to even think about having that done so anyone who has is immediately in the "other" category for them.

I don't think the aim is unhinged, I think some of the people most vocal on this topic on any side often express themselves in ways that seem.unhinged due to their inability to accept new information.

Anyway, we were asked for our views, I shared mine. Part of what makes one seem unhinged is when one interrogates people about their opinions to no purpose other than trying to get them to agree with you. We are allowed to think differently and draw different conclusions. It doesnt make either of us evil or stupid. Accept that I have my view and move on.

Funny enough, I saw that many of the very few female prisoners who have been quited as having an issue with trans women inmates in women's prisons are fine with those who have had surgery. So it isnt their maleness and that male propensity for violence, they just don't want cocks around.

The other weird thing is that many of the quotes were written in a weird dialect seemingly to imitate the women who spoke the words.

Can you give us examples of how these people 'express themselves'

Becayse this all sounds like the tedious tone policing that we all have plenty of experience.

If you think the aim is right, why pick holes on expression and try to silence women that way?

If you are calling people unhinged for expressing perfectly legal and scientifically sound views, I think we have the right to further explanation.

I've detailed enough in previous posts.

I've shared my views, as asked by the OP. I don't think their purpose was to try and persuade each other to change our minds so much as collect a range of views from a range of members.

Let go, and move on.

You dont have any right to any explanations from me.

For another arguing 'both sides' I'd love to know what they think is the GC equivalent of this

https://terfisaslur.com/

Pretty unfair of you to accuse people of being unhinged but not to be prepared to back that up in any way

You threw out the insults, so no I don't think it's appropriate to just tell us all to 'move on'

I shared my opinion on fundies on both sides. Do you identify as a fundamentalist on this issue?

Yes, it is. I gave my opinion. You certainly won't change it by repeatedly tagging me in comments.

i don't even understand what that might mean.

Is it 'fundamentalist' to believe that humans can't change sex? To believe that women have sex based rights that should be upheld?

Google what a fundamentalist is.

I'm not trying to change your opinion, but quite aside from this specific exchange with you, in a more general sense, I would absolutely love to understand what anyone thinks is the GC equivalent of this that makes it 'both sides'

https://terfisaslur.com/

It is a genuine question

But that's what I'm asking. Can 'fundamentalist' be applied to someone with perfectly scientific views that wants to uphold women's rights?

Of course. It isnt about what you believe, it's about your expression and adherence to that belief, even if confronted with evidence to the contrary.

What you'll see seemingly intelligent people do is reject anything that contradicts them as fake new but easily accept evidence of a similar quality that supports their view.

I need to leave for work now so wont reply for a while.

But what 'expression' are you talking about?

What do you see as problematic about GC posters 'expression' that would make them fundamentalist?

And once again, do you genuinely think that the GC side has anything equivalent to this?

https://terfisaslur.com/

Of course. It isnt about what you believe, it's about your expression and adherence to that belief, even if confronted with evidence to the contrary.

Sex in mammals, including humans, is binary and immutable. There is no evidence to the contrary.

That's not an opinion or a belief, it's a fact, proved by observation. Like gravity.

I see we've gone full Bananarama 'it's not what you say but the way that you say it'. A pivot we've seen many times before on this board.

But I'd still love to know what exactly the problem is with 'expression'

Why do you think I think everyone GC (or pro-trans) meets this fundamentalist description. I do not. Some do. Often the loudest people.

Could a person be 'fundamentalist' in how they talk about gravity I wonder?