How explain trans ideology to inclusivity trained friend

[Whatnown]

Hello, I’m trying to explain all the trans stuff to friends without sounding nuts. I’ve explained that it’s not a rebellious youth thing, it’s from blokes in frocks who own some big pharma companies and want big profits, also men in frocks who want their fetishes normalised, also men in frocks who want to perve, also confused young people who are being told their normal curiosity means they must be trans. But I’m doubting how measured I sound, and it sounds a bit mad if you are speaking to a cynical friend that has had inclusivity training.

gCan anyone recommend links to anything that explains all this for the dubious and cynical? I have sent her the link to the actual essay by jk Rowling https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/
other suggestions helpful!
im sure I can’t be the first to ask this, maybe the results could be pinned at the top of the thread like on several other threads?
thank you!

I was thinking similar, I'd ask what they were told (I was going to say learnt 😬) and then ask them questions about it and question their answers.

My question about 'the other side' wasn't very clear. I really tried for the last while to find any decent arguments in favour of Gender Self ID etc. or why it was good to have Gender Ideology in schools. I just couldn't find them and I would like to be able to say when I'm talking with friends that I have looked at the counter arguments but they feel invisible to me. It is just personal stories and things that don't make sense.

could always point them to some of the transgender subreddits, like r/mtf, right from the horse's mouth. "listen to trans people". :D

I imagine that a lot of us ended up here looking for answers, just like you. Turns out there is nothing. It is all smoke and mirrors. If there was a compelling argument for any of it, it would have made its way here by now.

I found M J Murphy's piece useful re how to approach the subject (aka how to avoid things blowing up)
https://maryjanemurphy2.substack.com/p/how-to-plant-a-seed-without-starting

Chesterton's comment - don't pull down a fence before you know why it was put there in the first place. So questions like why do we have women's sports in the first place, and let them work it out.

Explaining that you're transphobic and deeply ignorant about trans people is not gonna have the effect you desire.

As if any man needs to transition to harm us. Do you even know the statistics for rape? Proportion of women and girls attacked based on reporting (and many don't report) versus those prosecuted?

I know DV offenders who have repeatedly raped and abused women and haven't ever been held accountable, despite repeated arrests.

I was a witness to an attempted sexual assault on a child (reaching out to try and touch their bottom with both hands, after very obviously hanging around them), and immediately reported it. The child had no knowledge of this attempt, as the parent didn't want to distress them and it seemed random. A few gentle questions were asked of the child but all seemed fine.

Years later, the police contacted me because the victim had come forward to say this person raped them, and my statement was strong evidence they were telling the truth. After a full year, the police investigation finally ended and they pressed for a trial. The CPS rejected it.

That is our reality. Rape is common, and almost never prosecuted. Rape accusations currently take about 6-8 years to reach court even if the CPS charges, and the vast majority result in the perp walking away.

Men are drugging us in our sleep, raping us, harming us, and can expect to get away eith it. Look at the Met police - 1 in 10 officers investigated for serious sexual assault immediately after the Sarah Everard case, and yet they (and the courts) allowed a man with a history of sexual offences to avoid prison and go on to kill two women.

No man needs to dress up to access women. 'Trans women wearing clothes' is not an emergency. The fact that abusive men can attack us wherever they want without consequence, is.

Inclusivity training teaches people to notice when a minority group is under attack, and the kind of prejudice they experience. All you will be revealing is an intense, deeply abnormal obsession with trans people. You will absolutely come across as bigoted and unbalanced.

No man needs to dress up to access women.
True, but posing as a woman can make accessing them easier. More importantly, there's no evidence that a belief that he's a woman, no matter how sincerely held, makes a man any less of a threat to women than any other man.

Many men have claimed to be a transwomen to harm women.

To start with Andrew (Andrea) Balcer. Please tell me, what you think of this transwoman, who murdered his parents and identified as a woman to get into a women's prison where he has traumatized women.

All your misdirection about men is just a distraction from real issues that are happening. Men can now access single sex spaces they couldn't before and there are men taking advantage of that.

Yes, men do all those crimes. And you enable more of it by erasing women's sex based rights.

Is there a term to describe people who are critical of gender ideology without reducing them to a "villain" role? For an incredibly complex situation, it always gets boiled down to "if you are not with us, you are against us?"

For example, I do not believe in the concept of gender identity. Gender is simply a social expression of sex, and sex is how your body is organised around your role in reproduction. Gender, therefore, is fluid across time and culture, but is confined to sex.

You have to acknowledge that a large proportion of the aggression comes from transgender people, especially towards women. At trans marches, for example, there are signs asking for extreme violence towards women.

I will not respect any male who is choosing to disrespect females' boundaries. I also will not respect women who choose to support men's feelings over the safety, privacy and dignity of other women. These people are able to appear to the trans-supporters as good people while also enjoying the safety of single sex spaces that other women have had to fight for.

However, I am not hateful towards people who feel that their inner world is at odds with their body. To me, being inclusive of trans people means not excluding them by limiting their employment options and access to health care and mental support that they will need while they manage their transition.

Yes, men can and do assault, harass, perve on and rape women and children without being trans. That is one reason why protections, including single-sex access to places where women are particularly vulnerable to attack were established.

You say

Inclusivity training teaches people to notice when a minority group is under attack, and the kind of prejudice they experience. All you will be revealing is an intense, deeply abnormal obsession with trans people. You will absolutely come across as bigoted and unbalanced.

I say inclusivity training teaches people to ignore the ongoing continual attacks on the majority because of their female bodies, and the kind of sex-based prejudice we experience, in favour of people who try to evade those protections from motivations at worst nefarious, at best narcissist. You come across as bigoted against women.

What @Grammarnut said.

Listening to what they say is usually pretty effective tbh. When they say something that is effectively gender critical - and they almost certainly will - say you agree with that.

Unfortunately these days there is plenty of fairly mad stuff on the GC side, so I wouldn’t lean too heavily on trying to pour out lots of stuff about IDEOLOGY.

If you genuinely feel that anyone who wears clothes coded to the opposite sex is a pervert, by all means say that but you will sound like a Presbyterian minister from the 1960s, for good reason.

I have to say, I’ve given up trying to discuss and explain this, especially on social media, you just get bombarded with the nastiest comments, calling me a transphobe etc. Most of my friends and family are not even aware of the situation so it rarely ever comes up. I’m in Sydney so not sure if the situation here is better or worse than the UK. I think it’s like a lot of things, if people aren’t interested or have firsthand experience of something then they don’t pay attention or feel the need to educate themselves. I used to have a lot to say, now I just block any accounts on my socials that bring up these issues.

That simple slide that I can't find about stereotypes. Along these lines:

Women must wear dresses etc= conservative/right wing position (alas some v lib fems embrace stereotypes too)
If you wear a dress etc you are (literally ) a woman= trans position
Women should wear whatever they feel comfortable in = radical feminist position.

Sometimes it works better if you reverse the sexes. Even the trained women see straight through it when they realise that trousers are a genger stereotype! The point being stereotypes are limiting for everyone but trans relies on them.

Socrates would be proud😄

why were women’s prisons invented in the first place?

Would she be happy with a trans man being placed in a male prison? If not why not? If yes, what would be the potential dangers?

Why are so many male born adults who “identify as women” fighting so hard to be able to urinate next to 7 year old girls when my 8 year old boy goes into the male toilets?

Why do women have to make space for vulnerable men? What can’t men sort out the issues vulnerable males may encounter just as women did all those years ago?

Are you always this patronising about your friends @Whatnown ? I doubt they need to you ‘explain’ anything to them - not agreeing with you does not indicate a lack of understanding (just saying ‘blokes in frocks’ over and over again as you do in your op is hardly a sophisticated argument they just haven’t grasped, is it).

I think this level of obsession and fear around 0.5% if the population DOES make you sound a bit mad, and there’s no way round that really.

Have you considered just leaving your friends alone?

Or maybe you just disagree on this topic and you decide you can have your opinions and your friend can have hers…..

Don’t be silly.

This has nothing to do with obsession or fear.

It’s got everything to do with upholding women’s rights.

Do you want to see women’s rights to single sex spaces dismantled? Is that it? Why?

Focus more on the issue of "gender affirming care" and the underlying science (or lack of it) rather than on women's sex-based rights. Many men and (depressingly) some women don't like uppity feminists.

If you do talk about women's sex-based rights, focus on Elizabeth Fry and prisons, or hospitals or rape crisis centres – not so much on toilets or even changing rooms. If you need case studies, use these (apologies for pay wall):

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/hospital-dismissed-claim-of-rape-by-trans-attacker-bssxvbqch

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/crime/article/nhs-thwarted-inquiry-rape-trans-patient-male-ward-ph266nnrk

Steer clear of statistics about the cohort of TW in prison having a higher proportion of convicted sex offenders compared with other men, and don't talk about cross-dressing and paraphilias. It will inevitably prompt accusations that you're demonising trans people. All you need to say is that TW continue to have male bodies and exhibit male sexual behaviour, and that only a small proportion have genital surgery. Keep it simple.

If you talk about sports, focus on amateur football clubs and the like, where the issue is safety as well as fairness. Don't talk about school/university sports, as that's more relevant to the States because of the competition for sports scholarships. Don't give the impression that you think TW dominate the women's category in elite sports; it's DSDs that have been a bigger problem in recent years.

In my experience there is no point in debate with an adult who has an established opinion. However if you are to open a discussion, avoid words like blokes in frocks, kinks, pervs etc. It makes you sound disapproving and hateful. In most people's experience they see a sad confused teen who is vulnerable. I think its possible to have this discussion with compassion and understanding to some degree, and not turn it into a hostile 'them'. Good luck OP, i suspect it will fall on deaf ears.

Another angle is to establish whether she thinks there is a need for women only provision for things like prisons, domestic abuse shelters, in the first place.

If no, then fine, she is arguing to make all spaces unisex. You can debate the rights and wrongs of that.

If yes, then what would be the justification for letting just one group of men in?

The issue with asking what’s the justification for letting one group of men in is that you get the answer “they’re not men they are women”…. Which just takes you round in circles!

Can you link the evidence that as a group male people who have transgender identities do not have the same risk profile as all other male people in the UK population?

Can you describe in detail and precisely how a male people with a transgender identity changes so that they are no longer the male sex?

No?

Then all your post amounts to is distraction and emotional manipulation.