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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is being trans a 'disease'/mental health issue?

436 replies

SolveMyPrombles · 26/06/2026 20:05

I'm asking on this board for deliberate considered responses so please do share your thoughts.

A lady on a local group has described being trans as a mental illness that should be treated with compassion not pandered to because it's a disease.

Looking into it more deeply I believe she's wrong and there is no current diagnostic manual that agrees with her take.

What do you think?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · Today 09:48

Blimey.

Are we back to having to defend why a statement such as 'men are a danger to women' for safeguarding purposes is accurate based on evidence?

The never ending cycle of a poster trying to wheedle open the definition of human sex classification to allow some male people to access female single sex provisions.

noblegiraffe · Today 09:58

Helleofabore · Today 09:48

Blimey.

Are we back to having to defend why a statement such as 'men are a danger to women' for safeguarding purposes is accurate based on evidence?

The never ending cycle of a poster trying to wheedle open the definition of human sex classification to allow some male people to access female single sex provisions.

I think he is trying to say that if you accept that men are more likely to be violent, then you have to accept that a man who isn't violent should reasonably think that he is in fact, instead, a woman.

Baileyonice · Today 10:05

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 09:15

You do keep repeating that 'gender' is a social construct. The whole premise of trans identity rests on the concept of this innate 'gender identity'. Even though Judith Butler herself said that 'gender' was not innate, it was performative.

If a male person has nurturing feelings ( coded 'feminine' socially) that is not down to him having female biology. It is down to the fact that personality characteristics manifest in both males and females. Personality is not a direct biological feature or manifestation. It is a human feature - some of which may well, though, be shaped by one's biological parents and the inheritance from them. We can certainly seem to inherit personality traits from both of our biological parents ( even when we have never met them).

So you are agreeing on my third point. That the most important thing for someone, in terms of their mental health and well being, is being secure in themselves - and not being overly dependent on social validation or affirmation. which is of course an important point when it comes to an identity rooted in ideas and speculations about 'gender', and which has an expectation or need for others to validate that self identity.

It is far easier to find acceptance and validation when one's self concept is rooted in observable or demonstable realities - that are obvious to most people.
So, for example, regardless of me having short hair and liking to photograph construction sites, I am still recognisably female/a woman.And being female is just a fact of my being on the planet - and not an identity that I have to keep asserting to others.

Personally, i'd have thought it far more 'progressive' to understand and accept that we all can share in a wide range of personal characteristics and personality - regardless of whether we are male or female; men or women.

Isn't transgenderism simply a branch of transhumanism - which seeks to rise above or beyond our earthly human nature ( a nature that is literally rooted in the body and in the bioological/physical instincts and drives)? That sees the body as just a 'meat suit' with a disembodied soul wafting around trying to find a place called home.. Human beings have always struggled with the confines and restrictions of life in a body on Planet Earth ( the human condition).

Edited

You do keep repeating that 'gender' is a social construct. The whole premise of trans identity rests on the concept of this innate 'gender identity'. Even though Judith Butler herself said that 'gender' was not innate, it was performative.

Again, a trans person's personality traits are partly innately influenced. The categories of men & women behaviours are socially constructed so a trans person is simply categorising their traits based on what society has already determined. In other words, its not the trans person who is decides what the categorisations, society does & trans person just follows.

Butler's position is more nuanced than people understand.It is not so much that Butler argues for gender as completely socially constructed. The value of her theory is in the idea that the reification of gendered performances make gender seem less constructed than it actually is. From Reddit:

"I would point you to Butler's "Bodies that Matter"--which came after her more famous "Gender Trouble" and was, in part, a response to some of the arguments that were circulating based upon the first book. From the introduction:

"Is there a way to link the question of materiality of the body to the performativity of gender? And how does the category of 'sex' figure within such a relationship? Consider first that sexual difference is often invoked as an issue of material differences. Sexual difference, however, is never simply a function of material differences which are not in some way both marked and formed by discursive practices. Further, to claim that sexual differences are indissociable from discursive demarcations is not the same as claiming that discourse causes sexual difference. ...In other word, 'sex' is an ideal construct which is forcibly materialized through time. It is not a simple fact or static condition of the body, but a process whereby regulatory norms materialize 'sex' and achieve this materialization through forcible reiteration of those norms" (1-2).
By way of illustration, consider that "male" and "female" bodies are largely indistinguishable until puberty. The establishment of "difference" at young ages depends upon checking a very small and particular portion of the body. Without that inspection and its determination of "gender," there is no clear way of marking "difference." Yet, once that inspection has happened, once a "body" has been marked as "male" or "female", a whole host of discourses are brought into play. Boy babies are strong, adventurous, brave. Girl babies are tender, beautiful, cooperative. Certain roles are immediately assignedclothing, toys, ways of acting, ways being acted upon, etc. Children are treated differently in schools and various environments as a result of being identified as a "boy" or a "girl"even when there is no substantial or essential difference in behaviour or appearance. To the degree that one then conforms to expected behaviours and appearances (to the degree that one performs), one is counted as human, as a part of society. Yet, all of this is built upon perception and cultural norm, rather than on any substantial bodily difference. All this is not to say that bodies don't matter, but that many of our ideas about "gender" and sexual "difference" are enforced and inculcated when that "bodily fact" is known only to a few. The "body" itself has little bearing on these perceptions and discourses of gender and difference. "

Butler is particularly concerned with the social and political implications of those discourses which, while not completely separable from "bodies," far exceed them and are grounded more in particular regim"

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:07

There seems to be a lot of confusion in gender activists( and some others), between innate tendencies that are down to our sex based biological blueprint and someone's personality charcateristics - which tend to operate far more at the level of software rather than hard drive.

Helleofabore · Today 10:07

noblegiraffe · Today 09:58

I think he is trying to say that if you accept that men are more likely to be violent, then you have to accept that a man who isn't violent should reasonably think that he is in fact, instead, a woman.

At this point, after so many months, I think what is being attempted still is that we segregate single sex spaces by personality traits.

Baileyonice · Today 10:08

noblegiraffe · Today 09:25

I see, so "cross-culturally" is important to you for a gender to be valid.

Is 'non-binary' accepted cross-culturally?

In more egalitarian countries where free expression is more acceptable? Yes.

noblegiraffe · Today 10:08

Baileyonice · Today 10:08

In more egalitarian countries where free expression is more acceptable? Yes.

Edited

Then that's a no.

MarieDeGournay · Today 10:16

Baileyonice · Today 09:26

Ho hum & yet another unqualified GC graces us with their 'expert' opinion on completely uncontroversial broadly accepted psychological frameworks & for the rest of us …the biological bleedin' obvious.

How quickly they forget that GC ideology dictates gendered behavioural differences like 'men are a danger to women' when convenient.

What makes you qualified enough to dismiss other posters as unqualified?

I advise caution, as there are contributors to this board who hold 'expert' qualifications in relevant subject.

And there are lots of contributors who have been carrying out their own research for years now, drawing on a range of reliable, verifiable sources to form considered opinions. That you don't agree with, fair enough, but that is not in itself an 'expert' critique of the validity of a GC opinion.

So your 'yet another unqualified GC' may not be who you think she is.
She's possibly at least as qualified as you are, and possibly more so.

noblegiraffe · Today 10:16

noblegiraffe · Today 10:08

Then that's a no.

To elaborate on this @Baileyonice , you said "Two spirit is a obscure specific term to north American indigenous culture rather than cross culturally" and therefore two spirit is not a proper gender.

However you agree that non-binary isn't recognised cross culturally, but instead of then logically concluding, per your two-spirit argument, that 'non-binary' isn't a proper gender, you decide that the cultures that do not recognise 'non-binary' are in fact wrong.

Which makes it sound like you had pre-decided that non-binary is a proper gender and are now making up the rules to fit.

Seethlaw · Today 10:18

@Baileyonice

Again, a trans person's personality traits are partly innately influenced. The categories of men & women behaviours are socially constructed so a trans person is simply categorising their traits based on what society has already determined. In other words, its not the trans person who is decides what the categorisations, society does & trans person just follows.

By that definition, I'm not a transman at all. And since I'm a very basic, very average transman, I don't think your definition works for transmen at large, and thus for trans people altogether.

Baileyonice · Today 10:26

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 09:15

You do keep repeating that 'gender' is a social construct. The whole premise of trans identity rests on the concept of this innate 'gender identity'. Even though Judith Butler herself said that 'gender' was not innate, it was performative.

If a male person has nurturing feelings ( coded 'feminine' socially) that is not down to him having female biology. It is down to the fact that personality characteristics manifest in both males and females. Personality is not a direct biological feature or manifestation. It is a human feature - some of which may well, though, be shaped by one's biological parents and the inheritance from them. We can certainly seem to inherit personality traits from both of our biological parents ( even when we have never met them).

So you are agreeing on my third point. That the most important thing for someone, in terms of their mental health and well being, is being secure in themselves - and not being overly dependent on social validation or affirmation. which is of course an important point when it comes to an identity rooted in ideas and speculations about 'gender', and which has an expectation or need for others to validate that self identity.

It is far easier to find acceptance and validation when one's self concept is rooted in observable or demonstable realities - that are obvious to most people.
So, for example, regardless of me having short hair and liking to photograph construction sites, I am still recognisably female/a woman.And being female is just a fact of my being on the planet - and not an identity that I have to keep asserting to others.

Personally, i'd have thought it far more 'progressive' to understand and accept that we all can share in a wide range of personal characteristics and personality - regardless of whether we are male or female; men or women.

Isn't transgenderism simply a branch of transhumanism - which seeks to rise above or beyond our earthly human nature ( a nature that is literally rooted in the body and in the bioological/physical instincts and drives)? That sees the body as just a 'meat suit' with a disembodied soul wafting around trying to find a place called home.. Human beings have always struggled with the confines and restrictions of life in a body on Planet Earth ( the human condition).

Edited

If a male person has nurturing feelings ( coded 'feminine' socially) that is not down to him having female biology. It is down to the fact that personality characteristics manifest in both males and females. Personality is not a direct biological feature or manifestation. It is a human feature - some of which may well, though, be shaped by one's biological parents and the inheritance from them. We can certainly seem to inherit personality traits from both of our biological parents ( even when we have never met them).

Glad to hear you are paying attention to my previous comments on biological influences here. Yes, males & females share personality traits but not evenly. Genes & hormones create average differences which result in behavioural sex distinctions.

So you are agreeing on my third point. That the most important thing for someone, in terms of their mental health and well being, is being secure in themselves - and not being overly dependent on social validation or affirmation. which is of course an important point when it comes to an identity rooted in ideas and speculations about 'gender', and which has an expectation or need for others to validate that self identity.

You are confused here. I'm not suggesting the existence of identity relies on social validation but rather not being perceived socially as a'freak' because you are different from the norm preserves one's mental health….which isn't exclusive to trans people but all socially non conforming people.

Personally, i'd have thought it far more 'progressive' to understand and accept that we all can share in a wide range of personal characteristics and personality - regardless of whether we are male or female; men or women.

We agree! I just get there different to you. For me trans people epitomise the psychological interchangeability between men & women. My understanding of feminism is rooted in psychological overlap. And in actual fact anti feminists are renowned for blaming transgenderism on feminism justifiably for this reason. They understood it opened the door to interchangeability between the sexes.

I think the reason for the schism between us is I don't put as much value in the words 'man' & 'woman' that creates the stereotype allegations. They really aren't sufficient for today's complexities & therefore cause conflict & confusion.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:26

thirdfiddle · Today 09:10

I see where you've gone wrong there bailey. What you are looking at there is a dictionary definition that started as a typical feminist description of gender (socially constructed norms, behaviours, roles etc) then the dictionary makers added identity to reflect the word's use in gender identity ideology. And you're trying to make them both work at once to give us a worst of both worlds view of not even pretending gender identity isn't based on a best fit bucket of stereotypes AND using it to decide who's a man and who's a woman.

Far from defining who is a woman in relation to such gender roles, feminism says they're often oppressive. Women, your assigned role is to stay home, look after the babies and make sure dinner is on the table (not that I see very many TW identifying with that gender role at all!). Women, your assigned role is to spend hours on hair and makeup and look decorative.

It is true that more women stay home and look after babies than men, and that may well never go away as we are the ones who can breastfeed: that does not mean that a woman who doesn't want to do that isn't a woman. Even though most women in our particular culture probably wear makeup at least sometimes, and far fewer men do, the fact I never do doesn't change the fact I'm a woman one bit.

Distributions have spread, even outliers. We don't say a woman who is 6' tall is a man, we don't say a career oriented woman engineer who has short hair, never wears makeup and isn't interested in having kids is a man either. (And see how naff and stereotyped it appears to even type out this stuff? This is what your gendered roles and norms are.)

Yes, gender ideology morphed out of certain stages and forms of feminism - and, as such, has co-opted the arguments that some feminists use/d to suggest that there was nothing essentially different between males and females - that all differences and preferences are socially constructed. That we are not our bodies or our biological function.

This ties in with Judith Butler's suggestions that what we think are sex based differences are really just performances of gender. And gender is entirely socially constructed.

Gender ideolgues never really understood feminism; they just took some of its theses for granted. Feminism was never really just one theory anyway......there were always different strands of woman centred thinking. In their minds we are all equal and women are no longer tied to their biology; in fact female biology is often seen as oppressive.

thirdfiddle · Today 10:30

*Maybe go read my comments again & concentrate this time.

No one is suggesting gender identification is prescriptivist, rather its descriptivist of the reality of common behaviours.*

Ha ha, I've given this rubbish more than enough of my attention.

It's the identification bit that falls down. Descriptive is fine: some women match the gendered stereotypes, some don't, both are fine.

But saying you have to pick whether you /identify/ with the stereotypes and that decides whether you're a man or a woman or nonbinary, that's backwards. You have to know who are women and who are men first to observe that the distributions are different, and then they are just that, distributions with loads of overlap.

What you are doing is the behaviour equivalent of saying the average female height is 5'5 and the average male height is 5'10 and everyone should look at their own height and decide based on it whether they identify more as a man or a woman.

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:35

thirdfiddle · Today 10:30

*Maybe go read my comments again & concentrate this time.

No one is suggesting gender identification is prescriptivist, rather its descriptivist of the reality of common behaviours.*

Ha ha, I've given this rubbish more than enough of my attention.

It's the identification bit that falls down. Descriptive is fine: some women match the gendered stereotypes, some don't, both are fine.

But saying you have to pick whether you /identify/ with the stereotypes and that decides whether you're a man or a woman or nonbinary, that's backwards. You have to know who are women and who are men first to observe that the distributions are different, and then they are just that, distributions with loads of overlap.

What you are doing is the behaviour equivalent of saying the average female height is 5'5 and the average male height is 5'10 and everyone should look at their own height and decide based on it whether they identify more as a man or a woman.

Yes, there has been a lot of heavy prescription along the lines of: " There are 73 different genders or sexualities and now you must choose one; and by the way here is the flag that goes with that identity"

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:37

You frequently see these sorts of personality quizzes or tests on-line: "Are you an introvert or an extrovert?"."Take this test to see if you have ADHD". " "Are you a pragmatist or an idealist?", and so on. Tick boxes, and lots of labels and new identities to inahbit.

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · Today 10:37

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:35

Yes, there has been a lot of heavy prescription along the lines of: " There are 73 different genders or sexualities and now you must choose one; and by the way here is the flag that goes with that identity"

I thought Bailey said there were only three. Are we back to 73 now? I can't keep up!

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:38

BridgetPhillipsonIsACowardlyJobsworth · Today 10:37

I thought Bailey said there were only three. Are we back to 73 now? I can't keep up!

The essential point is having to 'choose' a specific identity. My point was general, and not specific to Bailey.

Baileyonice · Today 10:45

Shortshriftandlethal · Today 10:07

There seems to be a lot of confusion in gender activists( and some others), between innate tendencies that are down to our sex based biological blueprint and someone's personality charcateristics - which tend to operate far more at the level of software rather than hard drive.

Yes it's an on going debate but twin and family studies have demonstrated that personality traits are moderately heritable.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7012279/

The genetics of human personality - PMC

Personality traits are the relatively enduring patterns of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that reflect the tendency to respond in certain ways under certain circumstances. Twin and family studies have demonstrated that personality traits are ...

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7012279/

BettyBooper · Today 10:46

'I think the reason for the schism between us is I don't put as much value in the words 'man' & 'woman' that creates the stereotype allegations. They really aren't sufficient for today's complexities & therefore cause conflict & confusion.'

Men and women are words that describe biological sex classes.

It's neither confusing nor complicated.

Baileyonice · Today 10:48

MarieDeGournay · Today 10:16

What makes you qualified enough to dismiss other posters as unqualified?

I advise caution, as there are contributors to this board who hold 'expert' qualifications in relevant subject.

And there are lots of contributors who have been carrying out their own research for years now, drawing on a range of reliable, verifiable sources to form considered opinions. That you don't agree with, fair enough, but that is not in itself an 'expert' critique of the validity of a GC opinion.

So your 'yet another unqualified GC' may not be who you think she is.
She's possibly at least as qualified as you are, and possibly more so.

What makes you qualified enough to dismiss other posters as unqualified?

Because I'm quoting scientific studies as opposed to unsupported 'feelz'.

Spaghettimonsta · Today 10:49

SolveMyPrombles · 26/06/2026 22:32

Well except they are. I've met wonderful transwomen who just live their lives as women with no drama.

What does it mean, to live your life as a woman?

BettyBooper · Today 10:50

Baileyonice · Today 10:48

What makes you qualified enough to dismiss other posters as unqualified?

Because I'm quoting scientific studies as opposed to unsupported 'feelz'.

You think knowing that there is a biological difference between the sexes is 'unsupported feelz'?

Baileyonice · Today 10:54

noblegiraffe · Today 10:16

To elaborate on this @Baileyonice , you said "Two spirit is a obscure specific term to north American indigenous culture rather than cross culturally" and therefore two spirit is not a proper gender.

However you agree that non-binary isn't recognised cross culturally, but instead of then logically concluding, per your two-spirit argument, that 'non-binary' isn't a proper gender, you decide that the cultures that do not recognise 'non-binary' are in fact wrong.

Which makes it sound like you had pre-decided that non-binary is a proper gender and are now making up the rules to fit.

When we talk about 'cross cultural' we have take into account some societies don't allow free expression or are culturally constrained & as such we don't know whether such identities exist there. In other words, Afghanistan & 'friends' don't count & more socially egalitarian countries are a better barometer.

noblegiraffe · Today 11:00

Baileyonice · Today 10:54

When we talk about 'cross cultural' we have take into account some societies don't allow free expression or are culturally constrained & as such we don't know whether such identities exist there. In other words, Afghanistan & 'friends' don't count & more socially egalitarian countries are a better barometer.

So you get to pick and choose cultural acceptance for your gender being valid, but the two-spirit do not?

Baileyonice · Today 11:03

Helleofabore · Today 09:27

You are really quite desperate. But please, do extrapolate more about what you intended with posting that statement of hers.

Please explain clearly, what exactly is the 'typical' experiences you refer to and please also be clear as to why that commonality exists in the group of people experiencing those 'typical' experiences ?

Not as desperate as someone attempting to pretend men & women are exactly the same!

Her statement is self explanatory. She doesn't think Jenner's experience 'qualifies' him as a woman implying there's a female common experience.

At this point you are wilfully misunderstanding the obvious hypocrisy here.

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