Is being trans a 'disease'/mental health issue?

[SolveMyPrombles]

I'm asking on this board for deliberate considered responses so please do share your thoughts.

A lady on a local group has described being trans as a mental illness that should be treated with compassion not pandered to because it's a disease.

Looking into it more deeply I believe she's wrong and there is no current diagnostic manual that agrees with her take.

What do you think?

Oh they've been doing it for years, but now, apparently we're supposed to guess what questions they would have asked us, if they had bothered to get it out of their heads and into a post??

I'm trying to engage a bit more because I think it's too easy to just dismiss something as AI ridiculousness or a poster as a bot (I've done my fair share of that, admittedly, because it's just so relentless). I get tired of writing the same things over and over. So I engage when I have time and think it's worthwhile.

Obviously, it's not always worthwhile, but the information is out there now for anyone who doesn't know the ins and outs. I might copy it and save it so I don't have to write it all out again!

Sometimes posters are infuriating, sometimes they're funny. Sometimes they have something of note to say, sometimes they just make stuff up. It's all good! 😁

Oh. I thought gender came in infinite varieties.

Now there are only three to choose from.

@PenelopeJoanSterling Totally late to the game but does this mean that I have not understood the lyric 'hit me with your rhythm stick' and that the whole song is entirely about shagging?

Doubling down on bad faith. yes I did. Clearly. English is a little more subtle. If you are not a native speaker your response makes sense and is fair enough, but is still bad faith because I told you what I asked and that is the end of it. You are not that special. I will accept you telling me what you meant if I get something wrong, because I don't have the right to not do. I am not a god who can tell others what they mean.

You can''t pretend all those strawmen and bad faith arguments are there for all to see. You can''t even remove it. You were thoroughly taken apart, your responses were proven objectively to be flawed, fallacious, bad faith nonsense, and you have proven you have an extreme level of arrogance to not accept what other tell you they themselves are asking. I can be happy everyone else on either side now knows to not engage and expect anything from you of value.

i was trying to use a polite term for a body part

@Cattywillow I loved your post.

If I was a teenager now I would have been all over this. I would have thought it could solve all my problems and make me 'right'.

Instead I found religion (temporarily) which was a much less harmful pursuit and actually kept me safe through difficult times. I still value those people who helped me even though I no longer share their belief (must make me a religious detransitioner) and they hold no animus to me.

I really don't care much about adults - although they are just failed children, but at some point you have to take responsbility for your own life. As adults I believe you are allowed to make bad decisions.

It's the children I am furious about - the children who are being harmed for life, just for the pursuit of profit and to mask the intentions of adults.

How did people who are PAID to provide health care and support for children decide that chopping bits off them and using drugs without adequate evidence base was the right thing to do?

I'm constantly frustrated that TRAs think gender critical feminists are arguing for strict gender roles when that's what we're arguing against. It's the TRAs who think wearing a dress can turn a man into a woman. Grr.

Late to the original question, but clearly it is a mental condition of some kind. Trans people have normal healthy bodies up to the point they are given medical interventions. So two questions stand out: is it a disorder? And is it innate or socially acquired?

I think of it as a powerful meme. An intrusive thought which for whatever reason has gripped a person and is dictating how they live their lives. It doesn't greatly matter to this understanding what the answer to either of my questions is. The outcome is the same. Person with male body gripped by idea that they are female or vice versa.

Do I think it's disordered? Clearly it can be for some. Turning healthy bodies into medical patients for life, and the surgeries are brutal whichever way you look at it. Relying on persuading other people to lie about your sex for your mental wellbeing is also not healthy I think. Trying to be something you're not is a path that will never lead to contentment. There will always be some reminder. The most contented trans people I've noticed seem to be those who readily acknowledge their actual sex and live as trans rather than attempting the impossible feat of living as the sex they're not. As I think seethlaw here is describing.

Do I think there are physical or genetic causes? Predispositions maybe. If it was fully genetic or even womb-environmental as some have speculated, we'd know from identical twin cases. Some of the strongest predispositions seem to be being gay and being autistic. Those are both very interesting associations in their own right.

I think the current diagnostic situation is more an accident of politics than any progress in medical understanding. Politically transgender has got associated with homosexuality which genuinely isn't a disorder, does not require any treatment or discomfort with one's body, and trans wanted that same "natural difference" status. I don't think both demanding medical treatment and resisting categorisation as a disorder are going to be sustainable long term. Pick one.

Exactly, hence my amusement and annoyance when Bailey scolded me yesterday and informed me I had to pick one of his 3 gender identity choices.

Non binary is as much of a choice as any of the binaries, and I reject that label too, as it implies a binary I don't believe in.

But no, he was insistent in bold that I must be one of the 3.

Foolpiece.

I'd like to see Bailey try "only 3" on Reddit!

Do I think there are physical or genetic causes? Predispositions maybe. If it was fully genetic or even womb-environmental as some have speculated, we'd know from identical twin cases. Some of the strongest predispositions seem to be being gay and being autistic. Those are both very interesting associations in their own right.

I wouldn't call them predispositions to being transgender, I would call them vulnerabilities to grooming into thinking they're transgender.

It is interesting to see bailey, seethlaw and a few more classic TRA perspectives on the same thread.

Bailey has managed to find a perspective that disagrees with both TRA and GC views, though it is what I suspect TRA views of coming down to: you split personalities and fashions according to a series of stereotypes into masculine and feminine and an individual decides whether they feel more of a sense of identity with the masculine bucket or the feminine bucket. I know bailey would dispute the word stereotype, but on the basis that behaviours or fashions which are more common in one group than the other are exactly what the stereotypes associated with the groups are based on - stereotypes is what it comes down to.

Seethlaw is not a TRA was that poor phrasing?

I was surprised too 😅Then I figured it was probably meant as "Bailey / Seethlaw / More classic TRA perspectives" (three separate and different categories) since @thirdfiddle then goes on to explain that Bailey has an unusual TRA perspective.

Me too!

I wouldn't call them predispositions to being transgender, I would call them vulnerabilities to grooming into thinking they're transgender.

Maybe vulnerabilities is a better term. I'm not sure I'd use the word grooming in most cases. People are vulnerable to the meme without assistance. It's the prevalence of the meme in society that's led to high numbers of certain susceptible groups getting caught up.

I don't think I'm really drawing a distinction between thinking you're transgender and being transgender. In my tentative model, being transgender is being in the grip of this meme, for whatever reason.

I am not completely ruling out there being some physical/genetic factor even once you ruled out other known vulnerabilities. It's not particularly relevant to women's rights whether it exists or not, clearly sex does exist and is highly relevant and not to be conflated with whatever factors may cause a brain to try to dissociate with its sex.

Homosexuality in general has a strong association with gender nonconforming behaviour. Historical societies with third-gender roles often that has been a mechanism to deal with homosexuality. Usually male homosexuality, patriarchal societies aren't particularly inclined to let women opt out of their gender role, or even to notice sexual attraction that doesn't involve the all important penis.

Perhaps I could separate out from the predisposition/vulnerability question the one of whether it is a permanent state or recoverable. Even if someone has a naturally higher chance of feeling a sense of dissociation with their sex, life experience and learning can potentially reconcile them to yes I'm a woman but that doesn't mean I have to behave or style myself any particular way.

That was poor phrasing, I know seethlaw is not a TRA sorry if I was unclear! I think TRAs would very much disagree with Bailey's position too.

I'm unsure what Bailey's position actually is, other than feeding stuff into AI to show that everyone is wrong bar Bailey.

Well there were two options amputation and metal foot or try to recover motor function and sensation in my foot

i went for trying to recover motor and sensation although I do sometimes regret it as the main sensation is pain.

i do have much better ability to walk than of the foot was amputated though,

I’m not sure how or why you are linking this to conversion therapy?

I have been musing over this threads opening question all day, (too hot to do anything much after 11am today)

Firstly i do not think it is a disease as that would require some physical manifestation that is identifiable, such as cancer or motor neurone disease.

So for me that leaves a mental illness.

Illness is when one is unwell.

what does mentally unwell mean?

I think that means a problem of the mind that causes one to struggle in daily life, relationships, work, life challenges, lack of self worth, lack of resilience, inability to react and cope with day to day challenges that a mentally healthy person can cope with.

There are hosts of psychiatric diagnosis designed, defined, or invented to categorise people who are mentally unwell, in order to locate a treatment pathway to improve things.

Some approaches look for the external influences that caused what i call maladaptive behaviours, (such as anorexia, extreme addictions, such as sex, drugs etc)

usually therapeutic approaches.

An other solutions are drugs, ECT, hospitalisation and so on.

In the cohorts (more than one group) that we see which this post is about, the only available option has wandered in to drugs and surgery alone.

I think we all know why.

So yes it is a mental disorder. If it was not no intervention whatsoever would be deemed appropriate or required.

My 18.55 post is my best shot at summarising what bailey has said on the threads I've followed. Bailey uses the term typical or common behaviours not stereotypes, that translation is mine.
Edit:was supposed to quote-reply Murasaki. Clearly my brain is identifying as overheated today.

Nobody is 100% typical of anything; let alone gender stereotypes. We are all a mixture of characteristics and preferences...that is what makes us individuals.
'Conforming' to certain sex based stereotypes, but not to others.

The correct term is individuals are mosaics. But when it comes to relating/identifying/associating more to one group than the other it's an individual on balance determination that's based on personal beliefs & values. Just like for political party affiliations, not all individuals are identical in the policies that appeal to them but they determine on balance which party is more aligned with their beliefs.

What you seem to be describing as 'gender' is a caricature; a particular small set of stereotypes that are repetitively performed; which is why many trans identified people seem to inhabit a role for which they have to learn the lines, the movements, the inflections and so on.

If you want to play the stereotype game, beware because GC ideology does too:

"The Female Eunuch author then said it “wasn’t fair” that “a man who has lived for 40 years as a man and had children with a woman and enjoyed the services – the unpaid services of a wife, which most women will never know ... then decides that the whole time he’s been a woman.”

-Germaine Greer

Greer implies here that men can't be women because they can never be part of natal women's shared experiences. But the facts are not all women have the same experiences so by GC logic she is suggesting a 'stereotype' of experiences.

GC's can't have it both ways.

which is why many trans identified people seem to inhabit a role for which they have to learn the lines, the movements, the inflections and so on.

This completely disregards the fact that males & females share gendered personality traits that are biologically influenced so to assert they can only be 'acting' is absurd.

But no matter how much you perform gender - it does not change your sex. It is also not what makes your sex. Women can perform gender too...but that is not what makes them women. 'Woman' is the word we give to an adult human female.

No one is suggesting gender changes gametal/chromosomal sex. And women just like trans women aren't 'acting' but are at the mercy of biological influences that result in gendered biological inclinations & expressions.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3149680/

Mate you can waffle all you want, but males will never be women so all youre doing is giving yourself RSI with all this typing.

You yourself have said that trans identities are social constructions -

No I didn't. I said trans people categorise their own biologically influenced personality inclinations according to social categorisations.

which surely implies that there is a need for society to interact and affirm that identity for it to have any validity or legitimacy?

No. Personality inclinations of trans people exist regardless if society accepts them or not although acceptance of identity is helpful for their flourishing as it is for all people. Trans people are no different.

So what's the reference point if we are talking about humans & their socially constructed gender?

Gender is defined as:

"The socially constructed norms, behaviours, roles, and identity associated with being a woman, man, or a gender-diverse/non binary person."

Other than man woman & non binary I haven't noticed any other socially constructed genders.

While some might make the argument that you can just make a gender up a minority fringe dweller view hardly qualifies as socially constructed.

Maybe we could introduce one called Tutti Frutti just for the GC crowd.